Originally Posted By ecdc <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/05/the-case-for-reparations/361631/">http://www.theatlantic.com/fea.../361631/</a> Read the whole thing then tell us more about how the black community just needs to get its sh*t together. I've brought up redlining, blockbusting, and other institutionalized and de facto racist policies that decimated neighborhoods in ways that directly impact today. This article is a brilliant summation of the issues and why it's ignorant, intellectually lazy, and just embarrassingly clueless to behave as if past events should somehow be dismissed when discussing current socioeconomic factors. A relevant paragraph: >>One thread of thinking in the African American community holds that these depressing numbers partially stem from cultural pathologies that can be altered through individual grit and exceptionally good behavior. (In 2011, Philadelphia Mayor Michael Nutter, responding to violence among young black males, put the blame on the family: “Too many men making too many babies they don’t want to take care of, and then we end up dealing with your children.” Nutter turned to those presumably fatherless babies: “Pull your pants up and buy a belt, because no one wants to see your underwear or the crack of your butt.”) The thread is as old as black politics itself. It is also wrong. The kind of trenchant racism to which black people have persistently been subjected can never be defeated by making its victims more respectable. The essence of American racism is disrespect. And in the wake of the grim numbers, we see the grim inheritance.<<
Originally Posted By ecdc >>The popular mocking of reparations as a harebrained scheme authored by wild-eyed lefties and intellectually unserious black nationalists is fear masquerading as laughter. Black nationalists have always perceived something unmentionable about America that integrationists dare not acknowledge—that white supremacy is not merely the work of hotheaded demagogues, or a matter of false consciousness, but a force so fundamental to America that it is difficult to imagine the country without it.<<
Originally Posted By Dabob2 I was just about to quote the lines immediately before those quoted in #2: "Perhaps after a serious discussion and debate—the kind that HR 40 proposes—we may find that the country can never fully repay African Americans. But we stand to discover much about ourselves in such a discussion—and that is perhaps what scares us. The idea of reparations is frightening not simply because we might lack the ability to pay. The idea of reparations threatens something much deeper—America’s heritage, history, and standing in the world." (snip) "We invoke the words of Jefferson and Lincoln because they say something about our legacy and our traditions. We do this because we recognize our links to the past—at least when they flatter us. But black history does not flatter American democracy; it chastens it." That was quite an article. Long, but well worth it. I admit I never took the idea of reparations very seriously before - and the author admits the possible logistical problems - but this article had me thinking "hmmmmm..." I also agree with his conclusions that, as with German reparations to Jews, the value is at least as much in coming to terms with history as in any specific dollar amounts.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>But we stand to discover much about ourselves in such a discussion—and that is perhaps what scares us.<< That line caught my attention, too. It is a discussion that as a nation we clearly need, given the ongoing incidents, like the deadbeat cattle rancher "wondering" if black people were happier under slavery and such. I don't think we can pay the fine for this country's history of racism. Not from any practical standpoint -- not in terms of calculating who gets compensation, and in what amount. But I do think it's high time we stop romanticizing this nation's history all the time and hiding from the part slavery, Jim Crow, all of it, as well as current modern day racism, played in it all. That much, at the very least, we owe and ought to be able to afford.
Originally Posted By ecdc That's just it. There's plenty of room for discussion and if reparations can't happen, they can't happen. But it's maddening to me to listening to middle- and upper-class white Americans lecture black Americans on how they should live and how they should just try harder when these same people give you blank stares when you mention redlining, blockbusting, the red summer, title III.... All stuff Coates brilliantly weaves through the narrative. White conservatives: you can lecture black Americans because you coast on the luxury of your own ignorance; you have no clue the complex history you're stepping in. /rant
Originally Posted By Tikiduck While reparation may well be deserved by many in the black community, the American Indians could present cases that, if scrutinized in perfectly legal terms, could result in proving illegal ownership of millions of acres of land. Japanese Americans could do some damage from internment camp violations during WW2. My point is that setting any legal precedent of this magnitude would likely open a Pandora's Box of litigation. Where would that kind of money be drawn? Is it deserved by people who had nothing to do with the actual events? How does a nation come to terms with a brutal and inhumane history?
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< Japanese Americans could do some damage from internment camp violations during WW2. >>> The United States did pay reparations for that situation, in the 1980's under President Reagan: $20,000 per detainee. <<< My point is that setting any legal precedent of this magnitude would likely open a Pandora's Box of litigation. >>> So far, it has not. The reparations paid in the above situation were the result of an act of Congress, not a lawsuit or other court action. <<< Where would that kind of money be drawn? >>> From the United States Treasury, in the case of Japanese WWII internees.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I could see giving $1 per person in reparations as a symbolic acknowledgment that the U.S. was wrong. But really... where does it all stop? Do we pay reparations to all women for being denied the right to vote for almost 150 years and still earning only about 75% of what men in equivalent positions earn? Frankly, it is harebrained ideas like that, that keep liberals from being taken seriously on issues that COULD be changed.
Originally Posted By ecdc Although just about every group in the U.S. that isn't straight white heterosexual Protestant males have been on the receiving end of discrimination, Coates is right that African Americans have been especially targeted. While much discrimination can be linked to sins of omission and a refusal to respect or acknowledge differences, black Americans are perhaps unique in the level of active hatred and violence targeted against them. And of course, reparations aren't just because of discrimination, but because the very Republic we live in and its institutions are built on the free labor of blacks. Coates is right in the article: it is not an overstatement to note that without the labor of slaves, America would be a radically different, and arguably a far less successful nation. We have all benefitted—you and me—from the crime of slavery and the violence of Jim Crow. Race—not gender, not sexual preference, not religious belief—remains the fundamental cause of division and injustice in the U.S. It literally tore our country asunder and we have not reconciled it since.
Originally Posted By ecdc Two effective responses to RT's post: First, you can be a beneficiary of racism even if you aren't racist. I suspect that's what's behind most of the reaction to the word "reparations." There's a visceral churning in people that basically says, "I'm not racist! I don't steal or take from people! So why should I have to pay?" There's also the sense that this somehow happened in the past and isn't ongoing (both responses Coates deals with in the essay). Here, Ezra Klein makes a great comparison to compound interest: <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.vox.com/2014/5/23/5743056/you-can-be-a-beneficiary-of-racism-even-if-you-re-not-a-racist">http://www.vox.com/2014/5/23/5...a-racist</a> >>What Coates shows is that white America has, for hundreds of years, used deadly force, racist laws, biased courts and housing segregation to wrest the power of compound interest for itself. The word he keeps coming back to is "plunder." White America built its wealth by stealing the work of African-Americans and then, when that became illegal, it added to its wealth by plundering from the work and young assets of African-Americans. And then, crucially, it let compound interest work its magic. Today, white America is one of the richest and most powerful populations the world has ever known. And it wonders why African Americans just can't seem to keep up. "In America," Coates writes, "there is a strange and powerful belief that if you stab a black person 10 times, the bleeding stops and the healing begins the moment the assailant drops the knife."<< And then here, Matt Yglesias shows that reparations are workable and affordable: <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.vox.com/2014/5/23/5741294/slavery-reparations-are-workable-and-affordable">http://www.vox.com/2014/5/23/5...fordable</a>
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>And then here, Matt Yglesias shows that reparations are workable and affordable:<< Until he gets to this question… "Wouldn't it destroy the economy?" His answer: "Probably not." Helluva sales pitch there. That's a message Americans will really rally around. Never gonna happen.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Helluva sales pitch there. That's a message Americans will really rally around.<< LOL! In fairness, he goes a little deeper than that. But again, I think it's less about actual reparations and more about a reckoning with our past. Yglesias is just offering an option, since the immediate response is "We can't afford it!" And the we can't afford it argument is nothing more than a way of derailing important conversations about our past.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer Do they payments go to individuals, or to earmarked spending programs to mitigate institutionalized racism? If it is to individuals, is it any one with recent African ancestry? (We're all African if you go back far enough.) Do we re-institute the "one drop" rule or do we have to be at least a certain percentage black to get money? Or does the person getting the money have to be able to prove that their ancestors were slaves? If it is putting money into programs to help the black community, then isn't this more about a mitigation and equality program to deal with institutional racism rather than reparations for something? Would reparations be the right term, since no one alive today was held as a slave? And shouldn't the Southern States be the ones who have to pay for this since it was their idea to begin with? Or maybe England, who started importing slaves here 100 years before there was a United States?
Originally Posted By RoadTrip But the long term situation for blacks IS IMPROVING, and that is more important than writing them a check and saying "Here you go... stop your bitching and go away". The poverty rate for Blacks in 1963 was 42%. In 2012 it was 27%. Yes that is still too high, and over double that of whites. On the other hand, it is roughly the same as that of Hispanics and Native Americans. So I think improvement HAS been made, and we need continued efforts to provide equality. In the long run that will do more than writing a check to relieve ourselves of guilt.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>And the we can't afford it argument is nothing more than a way of derailing important conversations about our past.<< Perhaps, but I think that whole conversation is difficult to have as it is. Throwing in the concept of reparations is both an attention getter AND a distraction. Both sides know that there is really no fair, practical way to make amends. $33,000? Is that a life changing sum of money? Would it be healing in any way? And if we paid that amount, what does it really mean -- that all accounts are now square? I think we make the same core mistake as the slave traders when we try and reduce these issues into dollar amounts. It's one more dehumanizing thing.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan I mean, trying to quantify the value of a person's life, of their potential. This is why, when someone is killed in an accident whatever amount of damages survivors receive seems hollow and never enough. People dragged here against their will, forced into a lifetime of enslavement, children and spouses taken from them, treated worse than family pets. $33,000? $33 million? Money can't fix that, can't fix history, can't make up for what was done.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Coates points out many Jews had that feeling about German reparations, quite passionately, including Menachem Begin, i.e. "they're going to give us money, and then somehow we're square for the holocaust?" But it wasn't about getting square, because that wasn't possible. It was about dealing with the evils perpetrated head on and making whatever imperfect amends they could. I knew a holocaust survivor in NY before he died in the 90's, who received reparations. He said that was much more important than the actual money. Similar (albeit different) to the post-apartheid Truth and Reconciliation Commission, which granted amnesty from prosecution in exchange for coming clean about what was done. I'm not sure how I feel about reparations per se. I've always understood the argument for, but usually felt that logistically it would be unfeasible, for some of the reasons already given here. Yet this article has put a chink in that way of thinking for me. So I don't know. Maybe a symbolic $1, to underline that it's not really about the money, but about finally coming to terms with the past? (And not just slavery either.) Of course, that assumes that any commission set up would actually do that - maybe they'd just safely stay in the realm of slavery and not in the more recent history of segregation and plunder. (And even if they did, you know people would still complain about it.) And would the $1 be seen as insulting? I don't know. I just know I'm actually giving this serious thought, which I never did before.
Originally Posted By Tikiduck Money is not the answer. Instead we should opt for education. Devote a series of colleges serving the needs of African AMERICANS. Fund them properly, give people that chance, and that hope. We can't change the past, but we certainly can change the future.
Originally Posted By gurgitoy2 Yeah, the idea of just handing out money and being done with it might not be the best way to deal with it. I do understand some might feel a sense of "moving past" an issue, but I wonder if it might be better to invest whatever reparations into the areas affected. The housing issue specifically, and eliminate the redlining, redistricting, etc. Invest into the communities and put that money into making things more equal, with equal opportunities for home/land ownership, employment and education opportunities. It would be a shame if there were checks issued, but the fundamental problems still exist and nothing really changes.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan There's a news story today about a guy suing Red Lobster. Last year, he claims he wrote "none" on the tip line of his check, and that his waitress wrote in the N word, claiming he wrote it. He's suing for $1 million for the pain and suffering of being labeled a racist. If $1 million is the amount we affix to being mislabeled as a racist, $33,000 seems a laughable sum for those who were actually the ultimate victims of it. It's the main reason why financial reparations just won't happen. I think education is key, and to stop romanticizing our history so much. History is often ugly, and always complex. Usually what ends up on the editing room floor is the stuff that interrupts the narrative that we are the greatest nation in the world bar none. I think owning up to the horrible truth of our past, openly discussing it, that's what makes us great. I wish more people appreciated that rather than idolizing the founding fathers into unrealistic semi-religious caricatures all the time.
