Originally Posted By mawnck One of the most interesting articles on the topic of the economic crisis that I've read in a long time. This guy takes the situation beyond the world of simple economics (which he maintains is too narrow a view to understand what's really going on) and puts things in a historical perspective. His conclusions: Karl Marx was right (about some things) and We Are Even MORE Screwed Than You Think. Relatively speaking. I HIGHLY recommend this one as being well worth your time, even though it's ... rather pessimistic. Besides, it's kind of fun watching the Libertarian noise machiners that live on that site revert to classic "Commies Bad Capitalism Good" mode in the comments section (complete with lots of caps lock yelling), just because he's talking about Marx. You can just hear the sizzling sound of their poor brains trying desperately to reject the new info, that defends Nixon and ruins their worldview at the same time. <a href="http://www.businessinsider.com/currency-wars-trade-and-the-consuming-crisis-of-capitalism-2011-9" target="_blank">http://www.businessinsider.com...m-2011-9</a>
Originally Posted By fkurucz Sometimes I think that the fall of the Berlin Wall was a bad thing. Our "competition" with the commies sort of kept our predatory capitalists in check for a while.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Yep, it did. Although do you not find it ironic that most of military interventions in the last 20 years have been with the former allies that NATO armed? But I do belive capitalism, in it's truest sense is selfish and evil. The element of common good is missing from the equation.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>But I do belive capitalism, in it's truest sense is selfish and evil.<< I still maintain that it's the best we have, assuming there is a government there to insure that it proceeds in a fair and pro-society manner. We're a LONG way from that right now.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I think there is a lot that has been done right in Europe and Asia, however with the riots and Euro crisis, I can see how some would question it. I am a fan of government regulations to promote environmental and social best practice.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 ^^^ he reason I am not is because those in positions of power in our government ( and I can really only speak to the US) - are not people I wantdeciding all things that control my life. Less is more as far as federal regulations IMHO.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 The problem with that is that in the absence of that, corporations can control your life, even if it's not as obvious. Don't like breathing filthy air and drinking water that can make you sick? Too bad. That was decided for you. It's too expensive to make it clean. Want a safer place to keep your money than your mattress, but don't want the bank to speculate with your money? Sorry. No rules against that, and no mechanism for recovering it if they lose it. Don't think it's fair that you don't get hired just because you're the "wrong" color or religion? Too bad. Businesses can hire and fire whoever they like. You take the lousy jobs - that's your "place" anyway. Those are just some obvious examples of what - gasp! - government has ameliorated over the years. I intentionally put in the second one because when that was taken partially taken away in the name of "too much government regulation," we all know what happened. Less is sometimes less (for us). Yes, the trick is figuring out which regs make sense and which maybe once did but don't any more, but this "fewer regulations is always a good thing" philosophy (I'm not saying it's yours, but there are powerful people who do have it) is bogus.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 ^^^ agreed- no system across the board works. my concern comes from even the examples you have- and they are good ones- it all depends on the quality of the government leaders as to how they are handled. I agree we do need a federal government.. But for all items do we need a federal level - a state level - a county level- a city level etc.. by the time the controls go thru all those channels- $$ is wasted at best- skimmed at worst, power hierachies so set in stone, it many times paralyzes anything good from ever happening every action has an up and down side.... we have much cleaner air and water than when I was young -- the trade off, all the jobs that went with the indutries that caused the polution issues are in China. It just seems like we can;t find that happy medium ..in much of anything
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <every action has an up and down side.... we have much cleaner air and water than when I was young -- the trade off, all the jobs that went with the indutries that caused the polution issues are in China.> That's not a one-to-one cause to effect. Many (and I mean many) manufacturing jobs went to China not because of environmental regs, but because of cheap labor. Plenty of factories with minimal pollution or operating well within US regs closed the factories and just moved for the cheap labor. And in many cases the government gave them incentives to do it. That's the one I still can't wrap my head around. Giving companies tax breaks or other incentives TO off-shore jobs. And Republicans screaming "anti-business!!!" if anyone talks about changing that.
Originally Posted By dagobert I think the health care system fits here when speaking of federal regulations. I lived in the US for only six months, but I met many people during that time that couldn't understand why I defended our public health care system. They always told me that they don't want the government to decide what should be covered. I'm quite happy that my government decides what is covered, because in our system nearly everything is covered and it is a lot cheaper than the US system. (<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXvDSGYtHFw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...DSGYtHFw</a>) Over here in Austria a lot is regulated by the government and I was even called a communist for that. Austria is doing very well during the economic crisis and that's also because of regulating the banks and many other economic sectors. I think it needs more regulations in the economic sactor, even if some people will not like that.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<That's the one I still can't wrap my head around. Giving companies tax breaks or other incentives TO off-shore jobs. And Republicans screaming "anti-business!!!" if anyone talks about changing that.>> All while cutting education costs as much as possible, of course! We shipped off all the jobs that required less-education, then wouldn't spend the money to make sure that people were qualified for the jobs we had left in this country. No wonder we are in such a mess!
Originally Posted By vbdad55 "That's not a one-to-one cause to effect" agrred 100% - I work in that exact arena ( shared services etc.)- but also many of those jobs can never come back because of the clean air-water etc. rules. I'm not saying I want them necessarily...just stating facts about some effects of government control. Also let's add those companies who avoid OSHA concerns by placing them in places that don't care about safety.. I am just stating that sometimes there IS a price to pay for controls..sometimes intended- sometimes not. btw- most of what I stated here covers blue collar jobs gone away forever -- there are also 12M + white collar jobs gone bye bye over the last 12-13 years - almost entirely for profit reasons
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Absolutely. And there may be a price for controls - SOMEtimes. But usually when you inform people of the specific (no arsenic in the water, or remarkably better air in LA compared to the 60's/70's) as opposed to the abstract "environmental regulations," they're fine with it.
