Originally Posted By ecdc Why are Republicans such babies sometimes? I really don't get the fury and outrage over the Patraeus ad. People that many Republicans admire spew poisonous garbage everyday - Sean Hannity, Rush, and Ann Coulter. I never hear outrage over these guys - Dick Cheney goes on Rush's show. We often hear from conservatives and moderates that both parties are the same and it's all just politics as usual. Well this strikes me as pretty different - I don't recall (and maybe I'm wrong) Democrats freaking out and passing congressional resolutions over the crap conservatives say. Whether it's the Dixie Chicks or Moveon.org, conservatives seem determined to talk about what doesn't matter.
Originally Posted By jonvn I find it very offensive that the congress voted to condemn a private organization for their political opinion. This is one of the most un-american things I've ever seen in my life. What path does this take us down? Are we going to have to have our politics approved by the federal government in a few years?
Originally Posted By gadzuux I'll tell you what's "insulting" - wasting the nation's time with the manufactured outrage over this irrelevant matter. There are so many important matters before the congress, that for them to grandstand on this stupid ad for a solid WEEK shows just how skewed their priorities are. And it was bush who made petraeus a political football in the first place. They have absolutely zero credibility on all matters iraq, so they bring in patreaus as an administration stooge to diseminate the spin - hoping that his voice will carry more weight with the public than they ever could. They carry the whole charade out from start to finish, pretending that bush is just sitting on his hands in the white house waiting to hear what the general has to report. Then - "based upon the general's recommendations" - we get another six months of surge before a small troop reduction to approximate pre-surge levels - and never once acknowledging that they HAVE to reduce troop size by spring anyway. And they also refuse to answer to the critics who say that the character assassinations they did to john kerry and max cleland were far more objectionable than the moveon ad. One thing they love to tout though - the ultra low approval ratings of congress - as if they have absolutely nothing to do with it. To me - this is what's offensive. I'm surprised these childish tactics fool anybody. But then I remember that it only has to fool republicans, who apparently will believe anything they're told.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 I'll tell you what's insulting - that's the continual broad brushing of Republicans - then the assured - "that never happens here" response. If you want to criticize those responsible for this - go ahead - but stop the ALL this nonsense -- it's really getting old. Oh and if one's never heard criticism and outrage of Ann Coulter, Rush etc. ( including from us stupid cry baby Republicans ) you're just not paying attention - But hey, I am sure I am just misreading and this bashingnever occured. "Are we going to have to have our politics approved by the federal government in a few years?" sure - it appears that way- but guess what - both parties have a hand in what we are being allowed and not allowed to do. Heck a Democratic Mayor in Chicago supported by the Dem governor and a state run entirely by Dems has already dictated laws here that tell restaurants what they can and cannot serve - what oil they fry their foods - and where people can and ( almost entirely) cannot smoke. Also have regulated soda machines out of all schools - ( but leave cigarette machines nice and close since they collect about $3-4 tax on each pack...) Don't look now but almost every single day another freedom of choice is going out the window. I watch the news sometimes and seemed stunned that my government ( again both sides ) feels they have to dictate what each of us can and cannot do because they obviously are just smarter than we are in making choices. And imagine - a stupid Republican being outraged over people's right of choice being pulled in at every step ! Thought I had to be a card carrying liberal in order to question our leaders.
Originally Posted By jonvn I didn't mention a party. apparently a couple dozen democrats voted to condemn this private political group, as well. It's disgusting and just another sign democracy in this country has failed.
Originally Posted By ecdc vbdad, it's a matter of degrees. Sure Democrats and liberals have criticized Rush, Coulter, et al. But did they pass a Congressional resolution condemning them? Are you disputing that Cheney continues to appear on Rush? When was the last time you saw liberals burning Ann Coulters books? But I sure remember plenty of conservatives burning Dixie Chicks CDs and one group even steam rolled them. Sorry, Republicans hear the wrong thing and they throw some serious temper tantrums.
Originally Posted By gadzuux >> ... apparently a couple dozen democrats ... << Including dianne feinstein. I've always been tepid in my support of her, and this doesn't help her any in my esteem.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>I'll tell you what's insulting - that's the continual broad brushing of Republicans - then the assured - "that never happens here" response.<< If I'm painting with a broad brush, where are the Republicans speaking out against this absurdity? Where are the ones that are saying, "Uh, I think we have a few more important things to talk about than a political ad." It sure isn't the Presidential candidates, who were all over this, feigning outrage every second of every day this week (I swear, I think McCain might've blown a few blood vessels). Plenty of Democrats did exactly what Republicans wanted (though they still won't shut up about the ad) and condemned the ad themselves. But that sure didn't make it go away. Of course, the transparency of the whole thing couldn't be more obvious. What else do Republicans have to run on these days? Give them an opening to go after Democrats for not supporting the troops (see John Kerry's botched joke) and it's like watching monkeys go berserk throwing their own feces while jumping up and down and screaming. It's just an attitude I can't fathom. Do we get outraged at young men and women coming home with fewer limbs than they left with? Nope. Do we get outraged at 20 Iraqis shot to death by Blackwater employees that will never be prosecuted? Nope. Do we get outraged at the incompetence that got us into this mess? Nope. So what really ticks Republicans off? Hillary Clinton calling Dick Cheney Darth Vader, and calling Patraeus "Betrayus". Apparently, when the new Ken Burns' series airs this week, some PBS stations will be showing a censored version with some 4 letter words left out (because hey, who'd use curse words in a war zone - savages!) for fear of getting fined by the FCC. Folks, welcome to the current Republican party values: botched wars and dead mommies and daddies are ok, but don't call the vice-President a name or use a swear word in a war zone.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Including dianne feinstein" Well, she lost my support then. Is she even going to run again? I'm not voting for her because of this. It's not just a single issue thing, it strikes to the very heart of what is America.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 vbdad, I'm with you that the broad-brushing is over the top, and that conservatives such as yourself DO criticize Rush, Coulter, et al. We've seen it right here. What does seem one-sided, though, is the demands from the national right, when some left-wing organization says something, for leading Democrats to specifically denounce something or someone they have no actual tie with. The opposite does not often happen; when Coulter or Rush or a right-wing blog says something untoward, I don't hear calls for McCain or Guiliani or Romney specifically to denounce it. And, after all, why should they? They didn't say it, and probably have no tie to the person who did. But I'll also say I don't think this is because Democrats are somehow more pure. I think it's because the right wing dominates talk radio, which is where most of these fake-outraged calls for denunciation spring from. They are then sometimes picked up on by more mainstream sources, but most of them originate with the angry guys on the radio. Michael Kinsley in Time had a good editorial on this fake umbrage. <a href="http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0" target="_blank">http://www.time.com/time/natio n/article/0</a>,8599,1663424,00.html?cnn=yes "These days, mock outrage is used by every side of every dispute. It's fair enough to criticize something your opponent said while secretly thanking your lucky stars that he said it. The fuss over this MoveOn.org ad is something else: it is the result of a desperate scavenging for umbrage material. When so many people are clamoring for a chance to swoon that they each have to take a number and when the landscape is so littered with folks lying prostrate and pretending to be dead that it starts to look like the end of a Civil War battle re-enactment, this isn't spontaneous mass outrage. This is choreography. The constant calls for political candidates to prove their bona fides by condemning or denouncing something somebody else said or to renounce a person's support or to return her tainted money are a tiresome new tic in American politics. They're turning politics into a game of "Mother, May I?" Did you say "Here is my plan for health-care reform"? Uh-oh, you were supposed to say "I condemn MoveOn.org's comments on General Petraeus, and here is my plan for health-care reform."
Originally Posted By DAR The fact is Patreaus didn't deserve that. He's a decent and honorable man who by the way was critical of how Iraq was being run. So Rumsfield actually shipped him off Ft Leavenworth. And Bush in a rare sign of intelligence actually listened to Petraeus' ideas, thus putting him charge.
Originally Posted By gadzuux I'm not saying or implying that patraeus isn't "a decent and honorable man". But he took on the thankless task of being the bush administration's mouthpiece. He got too close to the tar baby.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Sorry, Republicans hear the wrong thing and they throw some serious temper tantrums< the point is SOME ! not all - not even most. I didn't realize all democrats are calm, cool and collected.. I have to remember that the next time Michael Moore is on a rant, or Al Franken..... the difference is I don't view them as an example of ALL democrats as you are attaching to republicans - that is my issue. Not the fact that Rush is an idiot - or that Cheney likely does not belong on the show -- Ann Coulter came to my town on a book signinf tour about 2 year ago. Now remember this is a GOP town in an 80% GOP county. Less than 75 people showed up for the book and more than 300 protesters were marching and yelling outside the store....with very creative placards etc...I guess they left their prozac behind that day --- the broad brush has got to be put away or we're NEVER moving forward in this country - and whether you believe it or not - it's the attitude displayed here that GOP supporters are all stupid cattle that keeps many of them from listening to messages they probably should.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <If I'm painting with a broad brush, where are the Republicans speaking out against this absurdity? Where are the ones that are saying, < does everyone have to come out screaming ? I'll tell you exactly where they are. In my county which has a history of 80-85% GOP votes, and many offices uncontested - the last large election say that vote drop to 68%. People are speaking with their votes - one doesn;t have to camp out the Crawford ranch to get a point across. Many of the seats won by Democrats this last election was due to very goodplanning by Rob Emmanuel ( another guy who does not get down in the muck and mire - smartly) - he made sure fairly conservative Dems ran for those seats ( very few idealogical differences from their counterparts)- and he went after the conservative vote that does not support the far rigth wing agenda. What happened - he won !
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <vbdad, I'm with you that the broad-brushing is over the top, and that conservatives such as yourself DO criticize Rush, Coulter, et al. We've seen it right here. < Thank you , I am glad someone see's the shift that is occuring - but it will not continue if people ( from either side) continue to want to drive that wedge in between. Those who constantly bash ALL republicans as stupid - and cattle etc - are doing the work of the far right - by continuing to so this ) "What does seem one-sided, though, is the demands from the national right, when some left-wing organization says something, for leading Democrats to specifically denounce something or someone they have no actual tie with. " agreed - it is a political strategy that has worked for the right wing faction - and the more reaction they get to it, the better it works for them. "I don't hear calls for McCain or Guiliani or Romney specifically to denounce it. And, after all, why should they? They didn't say it, and probably have no tie to the person who did." Exactly -- the Christian right wing has VERY LITTLE to NO influence on politics where i am from -- we think they're as nuts as the Dems do -- but I am not demaning anything from anyone because no one on either side of lote of these statements feels any tie to this. Exactly why I don't hold all Dems responsible for a few nut jobs I don't like there either - I figure most don't subsribe to that "But I'll also say I don't think this is because Democrats are somehow more pure. I think it's because the right wing dominates talk radio, which is where most of these fake-outraged calls for denunciation spring from. They are then sometimes picked up on by more mainstream sources, but most of them originate with the angry guys on the radio." Bingo -- and who listens to these people. 1/ those far right goofs who believe everything they say 2/ those so opposed they listen and get all worked up. I can tell you NO ONE I know ( and that's a really large circle) listens to Rush or Coulter, or Franken or Moore -- we think they're idiots as a lot. So to lumped in with those who do really ticks me off ---- DABOB - thanks for one of the best political posts exhibiting sanity with regards to the overall situation in all my time here -- it gives me hope that maybe these is a large enough group of people who will one day soon take back this country at the polls -
Originally Posted By ecdc >>the point is SOME ! not all - not even most. I didn't realize all democrats are calm, cool and collected.. I have to remember that the next time Michael Moore is on a rant, or Al Franken..... the difference is I don't view them as an example of ALL democrats as you are attaching to republicans - that is my issue.<< I never said it was "all" Republicans. I was speaking more specifically about Congressional Republicans. You're fighting an argument that doesn't exist. Any reasonable person reading these boards knows that there's crazies on both sides. Any reasonable person knows that there's screamers on both sides. No one's disputing that. I wrote these posts well aware of the existence of Michael Moore, Al Franken, Janeane Garofalo (who can always be counted on to remind me to move a little bit more towards the center) and so on. I'm sorry if you didn't like that I said "Republicans", but I think reasonable people can read it and know what I mean, without having to pontificate on and on about how I know many Republicans aren't like this, and how most are good, and yada, yada, yada. My point, vbdad, is the response from Republican leadership. I don't think any reasonable person can deny that Republicans in Congress, or in the White House, like to seize on things like the Moveon.org ad and make them examples of "what's wrong with this country." It's their way of appealing to the base and saying "You don't want these America haters in charge, do you?" >>Ann Coulter came to my town on a book signinf tour about 2 year ago. Now remember this is a GOP town in an 80% GOP county. Less than 75 people showed up for the book and more than 300 protesters were marching and yelling outside the store....with very creative placards etc...I guess they left their prozac behind that day ---<< That's good. But your anecdotal experience is hardly demonstrative that both sides act the same. First, Coulter's books routinely make the bestseller list. That fact alone is far more valuable to understanding what kind of following she has than one experience at one bookstore in one town. Second, the question isn't how your townspeople responded to Coulter, it's how does the Democratic leadership respond to Coulter? Did they demand Bush denounce her publicly? Did they insist on a Congressional resolution condemning her statement that the 9/11 widows are enjoying their husband's deaths? Did they call on Dick Cheney to rebuke her after she called John Edwards a faggot, since Cheney is a parent to a gay woman, after all? I don't recall any of that happening. I do recall the usual talking heads and pundits getting into a lather over it, but I don't recall Democrats in Congress wasting their time over it. >>the broad brush has got to be put away or we're NEVER moving forward in this country - and whether you believe it or not - it's the attitude displayed here that GOP supporters are all stupid cattle that keeps many of them from listening to messages they probably should.<< Except no one has displayed that attitude. Criticizing someone as incompetent and ineffective as George W. Bush doesn't equate to treating GOP supporters as stupid cattle. >>does everyone have to come out screaming ? I'll tell you exactly where they are. In my county which has a history of 80-85% GOP votes, and many offices uncontested - the last large election say that vote drop to 68%. People are speaking with their votes - one doesn;t have to camp out the Crawford ranch to get a point across.<< No one has to come out screaming. In fact, I'm requesting they ignore it altogether. I'm wondering why the Republican leadership feels the need to throw such a fit over something like this in the first place. Again, you're arguing against a point that never existed. I never intended to paint with the broad brush. But the evidence of how Republicans in Congress respond to something like this vs. how Democrats respond is there for everyone to see. >>Exactly -- the Christian right wing has VERY LITTLE to NO influence on politics where i am from -- we think they're as nuts as the Dems do -- but I am not demaning anything from anyone because no one on either side of lote of these statements feels any tie to this. Exactly why I don't hold all Dems responsible for a few nut jobs I don't like there either - I figure most don't subsribe to that<< And that's all well and good, but again, your anecdotal stories of your community do not necessarily represent the whole. Anyone who follows politics even marginally understands the overwhelming influence the Christian right has in American government and politics. We see it everyday just by watching Rudy Guiliani and Mitt Romney pander, pander, pander. Even the Democrats succumb to it; they ensure that they mention their faith in the debates. Why else would Bush insist on a constitutional amendment on gay marriage he knows is never going to pass? That's the power the Christian right has in this country, to get the most powerful man on the planet to endorse a measure he knows has no chance of passing. That's not a small thing, vbdad. Perhaps we'll just have to agree to disagree, vbdad, but I see the nutjobs on the right having a lot more influence over the Republicans than I see the nutjobs on the left having a lot of influence over the Democrats. You brushed aside the fact that Dick Cheney has gone on the Rush Limbaugh show multiple times. That's no small thing either; if Republicans like yourself are going to say that Rush is an idiot, then it's probably worth asking why the leadership you helped elect is actively going on his show, thereby implicitly endorsing him. Ironically, the things you're saying don't happen in the Republican party are the very things that helped them get elected. They march lock-step far more than the Democrats. They're more organized, they have a much clearer message, and their base is much more passionate. Believe me, I hate to say that, but it's true. Their message sucks and part of their base is mental, but you can't deny it's a clear message and their base gets outraged and will come out for them. Democrats, because they're more open to diversity and have more "special interests" that are vying for their attention, are less organized. And their base is pathetic. Conservatives can get thousands to come out against the Dixie Chicks, but liberals struggle to organize around anything. >>Bingo -- and who listens to these people. 1/ those far right goofs who believe everything they say 2/ those so opposed they listen and get all worked up.<< Again, you may not like to hear it, but you're making the far right "goofs" sound much smaller than they are. Every book Rush has written was a bestseller, same with Coulter, same with O'Reilly, same with Hannity. vbdad, conservatives get simply giddy when they compare Air America's ratings with Rush, Hannity, et al, because the conservatives regularly stomp all over them in the ratings. You can't say "Ha, ha, we're more popular than the liberals" then turn around and say "not that many people listen to these guys" when it's convenient. I get that you don't - I really do. I also get that there's plenty of people who identify themselves as Republican who are like you. But don't kid yourself - it's not your party anymore. Democrats can look at their party (spineless as it is) and know that Michael Moore and Al Franken aren't running the show. I'm not convinced Republicans can say the same thing about their party.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <I never said it was "all" Republicans. I was speaking more specifically about Congressional Republicans. You're fighting an argument that doesn't exist. < Really ? "Why are Republicans such babies sometimes?" "conservatives seem determined to talk about what doesn't matter." Somehow the Congressional Republicans part got dropped by LP I guess
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <but I think reasonable people can read it and know what I mean, without having to pontificate on and on about how I know many Republicans aren't like this, and how most are good, and yada, yada, yada. < then I guess I am not a reasonable person - OK, I can live with that, but it doesn;t change the exact sentiments that are broadbrushed here over and over about republicans or conservatives - followed by the usual denials it was ever said. It's very old - and then your comments lead to "I'm surprised these childish tactics fool anybody. But then I remember that it only has to fool republicans, who apparently will believe anything they're told. " and then another of your quotes where obviosuly the Congressional piece was again edited out. "Sorry, Republicans hear the wrong thing and they throw some serious temper tantrums." At least if you are going to continue the broad brush bashing admit it -- at least one other poster here, not a conservative/GOP also recognizes the broad brushing....but stick with the fact that I am pontificating or whatever - and misreading exact quotes, it only proves the point more. If I or someone else broard brushed any liberal / Dem or whatever ideal as pertaining to all members we would be crucified. There was a poster here once who was over the top with all generalizations and he was rightly accused of it and lambasted for it. However there seems to be a double standard. As long as Bush is in office it's en vogue to rip anyone who might have had anything to do with that - of course some of the GOP / conservative voters here may not have voted him in - especially the 2nd time -- but why stop a good lynching
Originally Posted By vbdad55 If every conservative or GOP voter had voted for Bush the second time, or supported the far right wing -- 1/ there would have been no election night drama 2/ by now boards like this that might even discuss the far right would have been shut down If every GOP voter voted party line Congress would not be in the hands of the Democrats - but again, likely some will say cross over votes didn't happen either....because we don't scream and rant and rave to get our message out
Originally Posted By gadzuux Who do you think it is that's supporting the congressional republicans? Nobody else but rank and file republicans, that's who. And it's the congressional republicans who are most responsible for the continuation of the war, even in the face of growing public opposition. I'm not buying into this argument that you can be a 'sensible republican' and still disavow the actions of your own party. It's a handful of republicans in congress that is allowing the war to continue. By aligning with bush, and upholding bush's vetos of congressional bills regarding iraq, it's the GOP that makes this war possible. You don't get to say "I'm a republican" AND "I don't support the war" or "I don't support bush" - that doesn't work. If you're going to voluntarily align yourself with the GOP, then stand up and declare that you support the actions and statements of your president, and your members of congress, and you believe what they say. Rush and hannity do it every day. If you can't do that, you're not really a republican - and good for you.
