Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Spirit...excellent post. Our society has changed, and I would be a fool to think the MK (and WDW overall) wouldn't change with it. The issue here is the extent of the changes made and the fact that most (if not all) of them are not positive ones. >> My issue is that society has constantly been changing and evolving (I think in the USA it's devolving right now, but that's a whole other subject) and it didn't matter once you were inside the berm. Well, that is no longer the way things are and if you can't escape from the world at the World, it takes away a big reason to go. I think it's the same excuse people use when employers, insurance companies or the government screw them over ... 'what are we going to do? it's still better than [fill in the blank].' etc ... I don't agree with that way of thinking at all.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Where has all the magic gone? TOKYO, but even they are beginning to slip due to the constant American team meddling...>> Now, now TDLFAN, you do know it's the hard-working team from WDA-Japan that keeps the OLC from diluting/WalMarting the brand ;-) Remember, that was puppet Ed Grier's old role!
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<But remember folks, if the magic can live at DL (and apparently Tokyo), and PAris has more magic. And DAK and Epcot can have more magic, why can't the MK? It's not a case of us growing up (quite the contrary). It's the case of poor management at WDW.>> PHIL HOLMES. And beyond him, ERIN WALLACE. That's why the MK is at, in my opinion, an all-time low!
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 I was going to respond to Trippy with one of my novel-sized posts, but I think it's time I actually saw Ratatouille, so I'm going to do that instead. But the bottom line is, his POV is 100% valid. It's his experiences. And if Small World reminds him of loved ones long gone, that's a great thing. And if mom loved PhilharMagic, that's great too. So, for me to sit here, and take issue with anything he said there ... well, that wouldn't be right. I believe most attractions at the MK are vastly superior at DL and DLP than they are in Fla. ... but that doesn't mean the Fla versions suck ... it just means they don't hold up well in a comparison. But as to this: <<I won’t deny the truth of what The Spirit said. But for me there is still so much Magic in the Magic Kingdom that I don’t even notice it. I really must lend the Spirit my Trippy Goggles some time>> I don't need those goggles, Tripster. I can just knock a few back at the Tambu Lounge and then hit the monorail ... or take a happy pill (prescribed, of course) and head over ... and, yeah, things might 'appear' better. But that's the thing about reality is it doesn't ever change, really ... only folks' perceptions do. And I want to see things clearly. I just hope when I do, I'm happy with what I see. And too many times at the MK, I cringe at things I see.
Originally Posted By bobbelee9 I agree with your original post Spirit, and -em had a lot to offer in explanation. 25 years ago I had a calculator and a pen. 20 years ago an Apple 2E and no internet, 10 years ago dial up, now I have cable, and some times that's too slow for me to get what I'm looking for. We've changed, so yeah Disney had to too, I understand what -em said. Not everyone has little kids, not everyone doesn't have kids, not all are teens, or thrill riders or old folks. There needs to be something for every group. Not one ride, restaurant or store to satisfy everyone. Just different ones for different types and tastes. There are very few "one size fits all" attractions at WDW, nor should there be.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN >>Now, now TDLFAN, you do know it's the hard-working team from WDA-Japan that keeps the OLC from diluting/WalMarting the brand ;-)<< Say no more... (rolls eyes) Memo to TDLFAN: you *must* be there the day the Spirit arrives at TDR for the first time.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 Since my night out at the movies died before it started ... back to the missing magic ... and this post by bobbelee: <<Not everyone has little kids, not everyone doesn't have kids, not all are teens, or thrill riders or old folks. There needs to be something for every group. Not one ride, restaurant or store to satisfy everyone. Just different ones for different types and tastes. There are very few "one size fits all" attractions at WDW, nor should there be.>> I so disagree with that statement. The reason why DL (and the MK) were built was so families could have fun together. No, there were exceptions. Even in Walt's time. Grandma may not have wanted to ride the Matterhorn and cool teen Biff wouldn't be caught dead on Small World. But the basic idea was that most attractions would be able to be enjoyed by most ages/demos. That logic, BTW, still does work to this day. That's why people of all ages love things like Jungle Cruise, PoC, Mansion, BTMRR, Peter Pan ... and even newer fare like PhilharMagic. The problem is Disney has decided that the MK is largely for kids under 12 and their folks and grandparents. That's why we have things like Pooh's Playground, Toontown Faire, Stitch's Great Escape etc ... stuff that clearly is meant to break families up, instead of bringing them together. People from 7 to 87 can ride PoC and walk off with a huge smiles on their faces. Who's going to say the same about Pooh's Playground? Or Stitch's Great Escape ... or even all the character meals? The MK should be all about attractions and experiences that bring the family together, not send them in different directions with those annoying walkie-talkie deals.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Memo to TDLFAN: you *must* be there the day the Spirit arrives at TDR for the first time.>> Memo to Spirit: I sincerly HOPE TDLFAN is there the day I arrive at TDR!
Originally Posted By bobbelee9 The families were broken up long before they got to WDW, both parents working, after school activities. One of the worse things we ever did was to buy a second TV. My husband never stays with us at WDW, he takes a much slower pace, parades, stage shows, informative stuff. We do rides. But we all meet up for meals and fireworks. And at the end of the night, we share notes and stories of the day. Last year with my 3 year old grandson, he found every drop of water he could play with. As a grandmother, I've twice sat on the floor of Playhouse Disney, but that's not something I'd do without the grandkids. I think WDW should be about families having fun together and apart. When my kids were young, I found there were times when they needed something like the maze that use to be in Toontown, or a playground, or swimming at the hotel pool. If 30 minutes in Pooh's playground allows a tense child to unwind and become manageable, then it's a good thing. And it made us all calmer. When my son was 7-8 years old he spent 3 hours straight in Communicore. I was going stir crazy but he was having the time of his life, all the hands on stuff. As teens, my daughters hated IASW, now as mothers they love it. I know what you're saying, and in most ways agree with you, but there have to be exceptions. Right or wrong, WE are not the same people we were 20 years ago.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad <<<But that in no way changes or diminishes my perceptions ... and the facts.>>> I couldn't agree with you more on this Spirit! <<<And I also don't agree with the familiarity breeds contempt line of thinking.>>> I totally agree with this. <<<I feel bad for all that's been lost due to the quest to milk every last penny out of every guest.>>> I feel this way too. <<<I often wonder when I think about the way Disney runs its parks if the execs in charge even think for a mili-second that they're actively destroying (or maybe just dumbing down) an amazing legacy. Then I think about people in general and realize, probably not. They're just hoping the new Escalade comes in their color.>>> This captures the BIG PICTURE as it really is. Bravo!!! I wish there were something we could do.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad <<<We've changed, so yeah Disney had to too,>>> I disagree. I believe that the execs are seeing new ways to take advantage of how WE have changed, how we want everything RIGHT NOW. But the prices sure as hell have not gone down! Therefore the demand is increasing. Walmart sells more, for less. The price is what drives the customers through thier doors. Let Walmart charge more than Target beginning tomorrow, and in a week, Target's stock price would triple. WDW doesn't drive people to it's parks with lower prices. Therefore, there was no need to change. BUT someone in the company woke up and realized that hey, we can make even MORE money for the stockholders by riasing prices, lowering standards by lowering fixed costs, increasing volume at the restuarants, and come out smelling like roses and we get to keep our jobs another 5 years to boot. It's all about the dollar, nothing else. Honestly, somewhere the company lost it's soul. Personally, I think it was when Frank Wells died.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad ^ ^ ^ and I've been holding on to that thought for a long time, but never had the guts to say it until now.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad I also believe that through the 80's and into the early 90's, Michael Eisner was absolutely the next Walt. I have read every book, watched every tv special on the subject that I can find, and I really don't know where things began to go wrong, but I do feel that 9-11 was a very large factor. Yes things were going very badly already, but after 9-11 the problems were too large to fix, and they aren't "fixed" now. If you think so, don't kid yourself. We are riding a Pixar wave, and I just pray it isn't short term. I didn't like the deal then, and I like it even less now. I blame Michael for some things, but certainly not EVERYTHING. Yes Michael made some boneheaded decisions, the two largest were go.com and the family channel, oh and the whole Ovitz thing. But overall, the big picture, I think he was the last guy in town to truly care about the LEGACY, far beyond the stock price. I'm way way waaaaaay off topic. Ok, back to the topic. sorry. The Magic is still there, but yes, SPirit said it well when he said, It FEELS .... different. It isn't the way it used to be for me, but it still is very much Magical for my kids.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN >>Memo to Spirit: I sincerly HOPE TDLFAN is there the day I arrive at TDR!<< Memo to TDLFAN: Lucky for TDLFAN, OLC employs lots of custodial to clen up the Spirit's drool down World Bazaar and all over TDS. >>and I've been holding on to that thought for a long time, but never had the guts to say it until now.<< Bravo DVC Dad!!! We need more intellectual thoughts around here. Now... if only you parted with you Post-Wells DVC mentality and stayed at WDW the good old fashioned and traditional ways, I'd be more respectful.
Originally Posted By WeirdJohn I'd like to respond to Spirit's take on Main Street as I totally agree. I remember also the time that Main Street use to be filled with unique shops. Does anyone else here miss the awesome Magic shop that used to be there? One of my favorite places. And now they are also getting rid of the castle shop as well?!?!? The pewter and crystal figurines there were just awesome. I loved to look at them to kill some time, and now I won't be able to do that again. Or at least not in the same, I am an in an ancient medieval castle atmosphere. Really, as Spirit has said, the MK has lost a lot of it's character. I still enjoy it, but it has definitely gone from being one of my very favorite places to my least. I spend most of my time at EPCOT now. MK just isn't as magical anymore. What happened to the joy I felt as a boy? Riding 7 times on HM in one trip? Riding BTM 7 times in a row and only stopping because the park closed? Let me say that that was done because my 40 year old Dad wanted to. It used to be that magical! I still remember being at WDW when MK was all there was! I miss the way it used to be then. Now we know the descent of Disney is true all around WDW. There are changes everywhere that are for the worst, but MK seems to be far below any of the other parks. No park has a ride in such a state of disrepair as IASW, or HM, or SM. Spaceship Earth may come close, but it is being refurbished as we speak. No park has filthy ques like MK. No park has filthy paths like MK. No park has lost as much Magic. WHY? I don't really understand it. Is the management at MK really that much worse than the rest of WDW? Somebody explain it to me and how do we fix it?
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>Honestly, somewhere the company lost it's soul. Personally, I think it was when Frank Wells died. <<<< I totally agree with this statement. But it's ironic since Wells was the money man!!!
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Bravo DVC Dad!!! We need more intellectual thoughts around here. WoooHooo DVCDAD - I have even more respect!!!! Yay. Any more ready to come out?
Originally Posted By hopemax > Personally, I think it was when Frank Wells died. <<<< I totally agree with this statement. But it's ironic since Wells was the money man!!! < I don't think it's necessarily "ironic." Good money men know where to invest. Tony Baxter told a story about Frank Wells, that indicates how his management style differs from what is happening today. One day, Tony was at Disneyland and while he was walking in front of the Harbour Galley, he heard his name called. He looked around and found Frank and his wife sitting at a table, with a tray with a sampling of everything on the menu in front of them. Frank said, they tried to get to the park about once a week, because, "how could you know how things were really going if you didn't?" These days, the park management doesn't even check things out like that, let alone the #2 guy in the company. And it indicates that Frank and his wife must have really liked Disneyland, to try and spend so much time there. I'm not sure that the current crop does, and I'm not sure that people who wouldn't choose something on their own are the best people to be running the place. How do they have any idea of what works and what doesn't?
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Very astute remark Hopemax. I agree. I also visit my sites after I develop a solution, afterall, if I didn't, how would I know what works and what doesn't?
