Originally Posted By dshyates While Disney is moving into the interstate outlet mall market, others are aiming higher. <a href="http://www.bearfireresorts.com" target="_blank">http://www.bearfireresorts.com</a> Click the snowflake thing for a preview video.
Originally Posted By dshyates I should mention that is a ski resort in Texas. And thenks MPierce for brining it to my attention.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy Let us know when it actually gets built. Looks like a real estate development scam to me.
Originally Posted By dshyates There are articles about this $690 million dollar resort in both Snowboard Magizine, and the Wall Street Journal talking about how the new snow tech works. While I'm sure all you DoM would love for this not to be true and to be a scam, I'm pretty sure this in real. Disney is truly no longer the world leader in themed entertainment.
Originally Posted By dshyates Oh, and SportG, I wasn't trying to say you were a DoM. Just that if someone does classify themselves as a DoM that this can't shine a favorable light on Disney's recent foray into strip/outlet malls.
Originally Posted By jkayjs <<While I'm sure all you DoM would love for this not to be true and to be a scam, I'm pretty sure this in real.>> Why would anyone care if this was true or not? This really has little if anything to do with Disney. The WSJ is clear that it remains to be seen if it will come to be siting several reasons financing as # 1. It states this project will cost >$600,000,000. They also site concerns about mind set(getting folks interested in skiing in summer), competition with local parks like Six Flags and the water parks as well as things like baseball. The concept is indeed interesting if you are into winter activities and it looks like it would be beautiful. <<Disney is truly no longer the world leader in themed entertainment.>> If this is true I hardly think the Bearfire Mountain project can take credit. It is always great to have different options and this would certainly be one. BTW the technology behind the artificial surface is very interesting.
Originally Posted By dshyates "If this is true I hardly think the Bearfire Mountain project can take credit." Oh, I agree. And Bearfire may not come to pass, but it shows an ambition I used to see in Disney. When WDW was built it was the largest private development in the world. I would like to see Disney go more in the "WOW, I can't believe they actually built that (Bear mountian)." direction, and less in the "WOW, I can't believe they actually built that (mulholland madness)." direction. Just my thoughts. "It states this project will cost >$600,000,000." $690 mil is what i've read. That is just over what they spent on DCA so it seems if anything a bit low. There are some very high profile people on board like former majority leader Dick Army. These guys are the project managers. Take a look at their projects list, particularly the themed attractions. These guys don't mess around. And look like they may know some well conected people with deep pockets. <a href="http://www.mcg-fl.com/" target="_blank">http://www.mcg-fl.com/</a>
Originally Posted By dshyates "If this is true I hardly think the Bearfire Mountain project can take credit." To further elaborate, I blame Eisner. He took Disney in a direction away from themed entertainment into a more mall-type retail resort direction. Now you will see even in the Bearfire retail is a major component (Alpine Village), but it is a extra not the focus. Disney (Eisner) forgot that. While reading up on the McGilllivray Consulting Group they brag about having some of the Disney Design Team behind DAK on staff now. When it was obvious that there were many up and coming competitors in the themed entertainment industry. (Great Wolf Lodge, Rainforest Cafe, IOA, BGE, and even Dollywood, it was short-sighted for Disney to cut lose there real talent and replace them with the guys from the retail division. Even now that we are rejoicing about the turn around in the parks division we are getting a 3-d buzz-type cartoon shooting gallery. Hardly an ambitious project.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << While I'm sure all you DoM would love for this not to be true and to be a scam, I'm pretty sure this in real. >> Keep us posted then! Let us know how it all works out! << There are some very high profile people on board like former majority leader Dick Army. >> Hmmm, ex-politicians and real estate developers -- sounds like a sure-fire hit to me! LOL The bottom line is that there is no market for this type of thing. The location isn't close to enough population centers to make it more than a regional diversion, and the amount of money that is being advertised for the initial investment makes it nearly impossible for this business to generate a return based on any historical or forward-looking projections for what the market might be.
Originally Posted By dshyates "The bottom line is that there is no market for this type of thing." Sshhh. Don't tell Vail Corp or IntraWest. And SportG, what DID you feasibility study on the resort conclude? "The location isn't close to enough population centers to make it more than a regional diversion," Right. Dallas-Ft. Worth pales in comparison to Orlando in the mid-1960s. This first phase is supposedly 35 acres with 500 acres of expansion room. "the amount of money that is being advertised for the initial investment makes it nearly impossible for this business to generate a return based on any historical or forward-looking projections for what the market might be." The amount of money is very close to what DCA cost and you have cosistently said how its doing ok. It could happen. No one knows if this will happen, but not because its a scam, but because it is too ambitious. We will have to wait and see, but I find this kind of project exciting. You can poo-poo it all you want. At least someone out there is still dreaming.
Originally Posted By jkayjs I'm curious if it would be cost prohibitive for most folks. It is fairly if not very limited in its theme. I'm just wondering if they'll be able to get a good return on their investment without charging an arm & a leg.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << Sshhh. Don't tell Vail Corp or IntraWest. >> Are they building artificial ski slopes in the Midwest now? << Right. Dallas-Ft. Worth pales in comparison to Orlando in the mid-1960s. >> Actually it does. The market in Orlando wasn't defined by the populatio of people who were already there, but the millions of people who were already traveling up and down the Florida coasts each year for vacations, alond with the exploding population of retirees there. There is no comparison. << The amount of money is very close to what DCA cost and you have cosistently said how its doing ok. >> And DCA already had a built-in market next door that attracted 15M visitors a year. Building a facility from scratch that doesn't have a built-in market like this is not the best business plan. What do they expect annual attendance to be, annual revenues? In today's world of easy financing (maybe not so easy now that the credit bubble has burst), developers can float all sorts of figures for new developments but that doesn't mean they make economic sense in either the short or long term. Honestly, I think you might make a go of something like this in California or New England. You already have a market there of people who head to the mountains in winter to do real snow skiing. A facility like this could serve that same market year round and when mild winter weather makes mountain ski conditions poor. Put it in San Diego where you have a built-in tourist base to establish your market position. Dallas, Texas makes no sense unless you are just trying to hype the local real estate development market to drive up land values, or you are trying to hype a new product (artificial snow surfaces) in the hopes of selling it to other developers.
Originally Posted By dshyates I agree that there could be better tourist bases. Orlando, Las Vegas, and SoCal are the obvious choices. But Dallas-Ft. Worth is one of the largest single population centers in the country. There is a huge amount of air travel through there. I would imagine there are more people through the DFW airport than visiting the entire coast of Florida in the 60s. And the weather is good for outdoor activities. After living in Colorado I can tell you that Texans are the largest demographic for the Colorado resorts. So skiing is big in Texas. Go Figure. That goes along with Colorado having the largest Scuba/Snorkling demo. Wierd, huh. Maybe a grand indoor Discovery Cove-type Resort with reef diving complete with sunken ship, sharks, and colorful tropical fish, Dolphin Encounter, an indoor waterpark, and a hotel w/spa would work in Denver. And yes I would imagine a vacation there would be expensive, but cool enough to justify a 2 Night/day visit.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << There is a huge amount of air travel through there. I would imagine there are more people through the DFW airport than visiting the entire coast of Florida in the 60s. >> I travel through DFW all the time. It is a major hub. I never stop there. Neither do 90% of the air passengers that connect there. It's a stop for a layover, not a vacation. I did have a reason to travel there a couple of weeks ago for the first time. My first observation was how puny the baggage claim area was in comparison to the gargantual size of the airport -- further evidence that there's not a large percentage of travelers starting or terminating their trips there compared to the vast majority that are just switching planes.
Originally Posted By dshyates "I travel through DFW all the time. It is a major hub. I never stop there. Neither do 90% of the air passengers that connect there. It's a stop for a layover, not a vacation." But give them a reason to stop. Just like in Florida a lot of people were traveling near Orlando but until WDW opened NO ONE stopped in Orlando. And Disney certainly wasn't basing their success on day guests who drive over from Daytona. WDW is the destination. Plain and simple. It is not inconceivable to me that someone other than Disney could actually build a themed destination resort.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << But give them a reason to stop. Just like in Florida a lot of people were traveling near Orlando but until WDW opened NO ONE stopped in Orlando. >> Once again, a very poor comparison. People were already stopping in Florida -- maybe an hour or two from Orlando, but they were already on vacation with Grandma and Grandpa somewhere in the state. No one is looking for a reason to stop in Texas -- it's just a layover to get to somehwere else where people want or need to stop. Apples and oranges. The people who are stopping in Dallas are also largely made up of business travelers -- not leisure travelers looking for diversions to fill up their stay. This discussion actually demonstrates why Disney has been so successful for the past 50 years -- they put some serious, boring effort into determining the optimum locations for both DL and WDW to serve the largest market possible. The entertainment is great, but it helps to be in the right place at the right time as well.
Originally Posted By dshyates "This discussion actually demonstrates why Disney has been so successful for the past 50 years -- they put some serious, boring effort into determining the optimum locations for both DL and WDW to serve the largest market possible. The entertainment is great, but it helps to be in the right place at the right time as well." Yes they did. And I'm absolutely sure these guys are doing the same thing. Walt did a fair deal of speculation that Orlando would be a good spot, but Disney did a great deal of creating a destination on its own. The impact Disney has had on Orlando isn't from people staying with grandma. Its because someone built the most powerful tourist attraction in the Universe. And the time was right. I believe that the time is right, right now, to try and steal Disney's demographic. The Disney parks are stale, Disney is busy building more hotels and outlet malls, and from what I've gathered, after DCAs floundering and WDWs mallification there are a lot of fans of great family themed entertainment that feel disappointed in Disney anymore. I am ready to try anything to get that Disney fix Disney isn't intrested in providing anymore. Fine, if they want to go for the Outlet resort crowd. They can flood the place for all I care. I will simply seek family themed entertainment elsewhere.
Originally Posted By fkurucz <<"The bottom line is that there is no market for this type of thing." Sshhh. Don't tell Vail Corp or IntraWest. And SportG, what DID you feasibility study on the resort conclude?>> I can't imagine that anyone would pick this artificial destination over places like Vail, Aspen or Steamboat. If you are going to get on a place and spend big bucks, and want to ski, I think the obvious choice will be to go where they have real slopes that are thousands of feet long. Plus I just can't imagine skiing in 100 degree summer weather.
Originally Posted By dshyates "I can't imagine that anyone would pick this artificial destination over places like Vail, Aspen or Steamboat. If you are going to get on a place and spend big bucks, and want to ski, I think the obvious choice will be to go where they have real slopes that are thousands of feet long." I don't think that it will put a dent in Colorados tourism industry. It is a ski resort themed amusement park. I think it will hurt WDW worse than Vail. The park itself is about the size of DCA. It would be a lot like Blizzard Beach with an attached 600 room WL. I don't think for a second that serious skiers would ever consider going there. Just like whitewater guides don't vacation at Grizzly River Rapids. Do I believe that between day guests from DFW and vacationing families that it could work? Possibly, even probably cosidering how far the project has gone so far.
