Originally Posted By ecdc Well first of all I think it's important to remember that this notion of government involvement in marriages (licenses, tax breaks, etc.) didn't just spring from thin air. It evolved over time into what it is. I won't even pretend to be an expert, or even all that informed, when it comes to the history of marriage in the United States. I suspect it comes from the notion that marriage is a social good and something that government wants to encourage. It makes sense legally for there to be some recognition of domestic unions in order to protect rights such as hospital visitation, etc. Joint tax returns make sense since a lot of people combine their income and share expenses. I'm not sure if this is where you're headed with your question, but I'd be just fine with governments recognizing only civil unions - between straight and gay couples - and making marriage a religious ceremony only. I'm not that sentimental of a guy and I'm fine having a "civil union" with my wife as opposed to a "marriage." I somehow doubt she'd be on board, however
Originally Posted By TomSawyer The government doesn't need to know unless you want your relationship to have legal benefits, joint property rights, joint ownership of certain types of accounts, parental rights and survivor's rights. If you don't seek or desire any legal recognition, protection or benefit from your marriage you don't need to bother letting the government know about it. But if you want your relationship to enjoy the legal, economic and social benefits of marriage it needs to be legally formalized.
Originally Posted By Donny I guess with my wife and I we file separately because I have never seen the economic benefit.as far as property you can have two owners with out a marrage license adn everything else people talk about why the government need s to know there seems to be a simple way for us to enjoy being married with out the government knowing. P.S. you used to get tax breaks but now you don't
Originally Posted By Mr X ***If you don't seek or desire any legal recognition, protection or benefit from your marriage you don't need to bother letting the government know about it*** Not so. There is no way to fill out a Federal Tax return without indicating whether or not you're married AS WELL AS providing the name and tax I.D. number of your spouse (I know this all too well since that was demanded of Mrs. X even though she's not American and has never lived there).
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo There are a number of reasons. Besides Tax breaks, it is for monitoring social trends to understand what policies work and do not work, it is for the protection of the citizen to stop polygamy, it is to protect a spouse if something is contested should their partner die and there not be a will, it is to bestow next of kin rights if the other partner is not compes mentis. And so many other reasons. I find it odd to question it though.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper I don't have a problem with the government knowing that I'm married. I'm not trying to hide it. And, I don't really have a problem with a civil union of two gay people or two people who do not want to be "married". My mother lost her partner of 10 years last year. Because they were not married the health care issues (including DNR orders) were very complicated. She should have just been worried about being at his bedside and providing him comfort in the end. Instead she had to deal with all kinds of legal crap making it more a process of beauracracy than an end of an individual's life. I don't wish that on anyone, gay or not.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <as far as property you can have two owners with out a marrage license > Yes, but not in the same way. With a married couple, it is understood that if one dies, the surviving partner can simply stay in the house, with no tax hit. If you're not married, the law considers you "strangers" and even if you've carefully made it clear in the will that the surviving partner inherits the dead partner's half of the house, that half becomes a "gift" (since you're "strangers") and the survivor is then hit with a big tax bill for half the value of the house. If it's a valuable house or the survivor has little savings, he or she can lose the house if he/she can't afford the tax bite. So the survivor loses his home, right after losing his spouse. This happens to gay couples all the time and is just one of the very specific protections that marriage gives that straight people often aren't even aware of and simply take for granted.
Originally Posted By Mr X Thanks for that info Dabob. Very important info, indeed! For me, the whole "can't visit your partner in the hospital, or be involved in medical decisions" is the flashpoint for me as far as rights are concerned and why the whole denial thing pisses me off so much. But you bring up another one that is very nearly as significant for a whole lot of people (it's not *just* about money or losing a house either, we're talking cherished memories and a HOME here!)!
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Wahooskipper, this is why I think the gay marriage thing is barking up the wrong tree sort of speak. I think the reform should be about family - married, cohabiting, homosexual, heterosexual, older siblings that live together late in life to take care of each other etc.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper dave...I have many gay friends who share that same perspective. They feel the push for "marriage" is going to delay their opportunity for more meaningful equality issues to be recognized.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I have seen so many sob stories of gay friends like this, or in many cases elderly friends/family members that bought together and care for each other, and because one gets sick or dies, it puts the others at risk. It breaks my heart and so many people are oblivious.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <dave...I have many gay friends who share that same perspective. They feel the push for "marriage" is going to delay their opportunity for more meaningful equality issues to be recognized.> I understand that sentiment (except for the phrase "more meaningful equality issues); the "m-word" freaks some straight people out so much when applied to gay people that they just put up a wall and (in most states anyway), nothing moves forward. And a lot of people think "if only we'd just gone for some specific law changes instead of insisting on full equality..." The other school of thought, of course, is that full equality IS the goal, on more levels than just the practical ones. As Martin Luther King once said, "This is no time to engage in the luxury of cooling off or to take the tranquilizing drug of gradualism." And, of course, once you gain full equality, the practical benefits come. And there are very encouraging signs that all the work and moral persuasion we've been doing have been working. <a href="http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/0811/cnn-poll-majority-support-samesex-marriage-rights-time/" target="_blank">http://www.rawstory.com/rs/201...ts-time/</a>
Originally Posted By markymouse Social security benefits are another reason why the government needs to know you're married. Many marriages are between two people of nearly equal earnings. But many marriages are between a person who earns most of the income and a person who provides most of the child rearing and other responsibilities that don't bring in income. In a federally sanctioned marriage, the government acknowledges this partnership and pays out social security to the lower earner or non-earner based on how much his or her spouse contributed to the social security system. With unmarried couples or couples whose marriages aren't recognized by the federal government, the lower earner or non-earner receives social security based only on what he or she directly paid into the system. Benefits for spouses of military killed in action ... the ability to sponsor your spouse's immigration ... there are tons of benefits or issues around federal recognition of a marriage. Over the next few years we might see some baby steps from the federal government in equalizing the treatment of couples regardless of the marital status. So far, the only federal acknowledgement I've ever experienced was a joint national parks pass. And we had to go to park headquarters for that after the person at the front gate said we couldn't get one.
Originally Posted By Princessjenn5795 "P.S. you used to get tax breaks but now you don't" Actually you do. My husband and I looked at the numbers if we were to file jointly or separately when we did our taxes this year and filing jointly got us a LOT more money back by filing a joint return. I am sure this is not always the case for everyone's situation but I think in most cases the "married filing jointly" benefits are helpful to people.
