Originally Posted By WilliamK99 If those who are against Obamacare, or as it is also known, The Affordable Health Care act...then why don't they go on record saying they are against it, and just let it go through without any further objections... If it's a disaster like I imagine it will be at least for first couple years, then the Democrats are screwed for the next few elections... The reason why I wanted to post this is that it seems some GOPers are looking to refuse to fund the bill, and I am sick of it... You lost, let it go, and see what transpires, if it is a disaster, then the Republicans are exonerated and they get to use that as their platform for next few years...If it's a success I am sure they can find something else to whine about... <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/312727-shutdown-looms-over-obamacare">http://thehill.com/homenews/ad...bamacare</a>
Originally Posted By ecdc Finally, we agree on something I'm starting to think Republicans are actually afraid Obamacare might just work.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>it seems some GOPers are looking to refuse to fund the bill, and I am sick of it<< I swear to you, these people are not even thinking about this in terms of running a country anymore. It's a war minus the shooting. They do not care about outcomes or collateral damage or strategy or reality or the collapse of their country or anything else. These are simply not relevant to their thought processes (if you can call it that) anymore. Every action they take, every statement they make, every vote they cast has one purpose and one purpose only ... to defeat their arch-enemy, who they blindly, vehemently, all-encompassingly DESPISE. In short, these people are clinically, fundamentally, bat-guano INSANE. They WILL have no compunction at LITERALLY destroying their country, as long as they can defeat that damn Moslem Commie and his freedom-hating party of traitors. This post shows that you're starting to notice too, William. And I hope you, and others like you, will continue to pay attention.
Originally Posted By Labuda Excellent post, mawnck... and, William, it's nice to see even you getting fed up with the tactics of the current crop of Republicans.
Originally Posted By Yookeroo "I'm starting to think Republicans are actually afraid Obamacare might just work." Of course they are.
Originally Posted By planodisney I think there might be some truth to this, but this isn't new by any stretch. I think both sides are getting sucked into the Washington way and constantly live in fear that the other sides ideas will work. Admit it or not, the Democrats in Washington were petrified that Iraq would be a success for Bush and Republicans and were foaming at the mouth to label it a failure as soon as they possibly could. You tell me which situation is the bigger moral outrage. If anything, the Democrats in office on a national level are much more devoid of any set of values than Republicans. Their values blow with the pop cultural winds and they ACHE to have acceptance within that community. Republicans in Washington, on the other hand, suffer from 2 afflictions. Lack of any statesmanship and lack of all but a few idea men. I would give anything if we could send everyone home on both sides and start all over. I'm tired of old white guys who have know idea how to relate to people or lead people to action. JMHO
Originally Posted By Labuda "Admit it or not, the Democrats in Washington were petrified that Iraq would be a success for Bush and Republicans and were foaming at the mouth to label it a failure as soon as they possibly could." Proof, please. Actual, solid proof that any elected member of Congress WANTED us to fail in Iraq.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>Admit it or not, the Democrats in Washington were petrified that Iraq would be a success for Bush and Republicans<< Just for the record, it has been many years since I've been petrified, or even suspicious, that ANY Republican program would be a success. Crazy people make lousy managers.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 "... to label it a failure as soon as they possibly could." Please. No rewriting of history, please. Democrats in Congress got completely cowed by the "you're for us or against us "bullying of Bush and cronies, and most of them voted for the war. When the war started, upwards of 80% of Americans were in favor of it. Obviously, that included an awful lot of Democrats. People turned against the war BECAUSE it was a fiasco, almost instantly. Even so, many Americans, including Democrats, were loathe to turn against it quickly. But as it became clear what a monumental blunder it was, they did. But only after it became clear, not in advance. There were some people who quite rightly pointed out that it was likely to be a fiasco. Quite rightly pointed out that Bush seem to have had no plans for the aftermath, only for the military operation. That was always going to be the easy part, we pointed out. After that, we'd be occupying a country where people have been fighting with each other for 1000 years. What could possibly go wrong? Those people were in the minority, but look very prescient now. But it was definitely a minority, even of Democrats. Don't rewrite history. "You tell me which situation is the bigger moral outrage. " You tell me which is the bigger moral outrage: committing the nation to that monumental blunder, or pointing it out.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer The GOP is deathly afraid that Obamacare will work. The last thing they want is for people to realize that there are times that government can be helpful and beneficial. They've spent so much time and money trying to make it so small that it can no longer effectively regulate business that anything that makes it seem useful is anathema.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf So what exactly does Obamacare working look like? Everyone covered and health costs going down for everyone? Or will we consider it a success if a few more people are covered and net costs decrease for certain segments of society and increase for the rest? I admit it, I am afraid of what a "successful" Obamacare looks like. And I am not even a Republican.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 The model is basically Romneycare in MA. There, there were cost savings (if not tremendous) and something like 98% of people are covered. It's not as good as single-payer, and of course problems will remain. But it should be an improvement.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf An improvement for some maybe (hopefully). But certainly not an improvement for all. It is already hurting a lot of hourly workers indirectly who now get less than 30 hours per week so that their employer does not have to pay for coverage or the penalty. So there's that. But I admit I am biased because the new system is going to cost me and my family A LOT of money, which would be more palatable if a more fundamental change were happening to the system. As it is, it just seems like I will be writing big checks merely to pay for others to get subsidized healtcare. It doesn't seem fair, especially considering I am taking care of my elderly mother-in-law who does not qualify for any subsidizd insurance, not even Medicare/MediCal. And she just her had insurance policy canceled (effectve 1/1/14) because of Obamacare and she can't get another policy from anyone. So I am paying for everyone else and I can't even buy a policy for her. It's just not right.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <It is already hurting a lot of hourly workers indirectly who now get less than 30 hours per week so that their employer does not have to pay for coverage or the penalty. So there's that.> That's been overblown, and you should be blaming the employers. <As it is, it just seems like I will be writing big checks merely to pay for others to get subsidized healtcare.> Unless you make over $250K a year, there is no tax increase. So how are you writing "big checks" to pay for others? <And she just her had insurance policy canceled (effectve 1/1/14) because of Obamacare and she can't get another policy from anyone.> That doesn't ring true either. One of the features of Obamacare is that you can't be kicked off for a preexisting condition. So how is she losing her policy? She may well have a winnable claim here if she chooses to pursue it. If she does lose it, how is it she can't get another one? You also can't be denied coverage now due to preexisting condition. She should be able to get a new policy through the new exchanges.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>It doesn't seem fair<< I hear you, but that's exactly what insurance is. Broaden the pool to spread around the risk. Yes, there will be those few groups that it does actually cost more, and I understand they won't like that, but that's a result of trying to add people who haven't even been able to get insurance in the past. What about those people? It's why Republicans keep citing the exact same demographic every time they try and insist Obamacare will cost too much: 25 year old bros. To listen to Republicans, Obamacare is a nightmare for 25 year old men because it'll cost them more when they use insurance less. Left out of this is the obvious point: 25 year old bros don't stay 25 year old bros. They get older, their healthcare costs more. They get married and have children, and they want their maternity covered. So on and so on.... Over time, those 25 year old bros become 60 year old men, and all of a sudden, healthcare is a bargain. And that's the problem: healthcare reform requires a longterm perspective, something this country is bloody awful at. Everyone just thinks, "It'll inconvenience me right now! How dare they!" What's even worse is, no massive law is perfect on the first try. It requires tweaking, adjustments, etc. That's what legislators are supposed to do. Instead, Republicans are just trying as hard as they can to hobble Obamacare, make it as ineffective as possible, just so they can say that they won. It's cynical and unAmerican.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 That's true. If there are cracks in Obamacare that people fall through or other aspects that could be improved (and basically EVERY law of this magnitude can be), they should be looking to do that. Instead, the GOP WANTS people to have problems, because that will mean they were "right," somehow. They don't care about the collateral damage that will cause - they just want an issue to run on. They will play up every horror story they can even semi-plausibly blame on Obamacare, forgetting of course that there are literally millions of people out there with horror stories relating to the status quo ante of our health care system.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf <<That's been overblown, and you should be blaming the employers.>> I disagree. One of the central problems of our system is that healthcare is tied to employment. It is why people lose their coverage when they lose their jobs, it is why wages have stagnated. Doubling down on this flawed policy is one of Obamacare's major flaws. And I don't understand why you're turning a blind eye to those employees that are seriously being affected by this. It's real. <<Unless you make over $250K a year, there is no tax increase. So how are you writing "big checks" to pay for others?>> I'll just say my taxes and insurance premiums are going up - plus that whole situation with my mother-in-law. I will be paying a lot more next year. Her insurance premiums, assuming we will be able to buy a policy on the exchange, will be double what we are currently paying. But that's okay, right? I'm one of the ones you're happy to see get hammered by this. For taking more than my fair share. <<That doesn't ring true either. One of the features of Obamacare is that you can't be kicked off for a preexisting condition. So how is she losing her policy?>> Doesn't ring true? I wish I could post the letter. It states that because her current policy doesn't meet the new ACA standards, it is beig terminated at the end of the year. It then tells us to go out to the exchange. Well I did and plugged in her info and it she says she is eligible for MediCal, which of course she isn't because of her immigration status. So when the exchange is up and running we'll cross our fingers and hope that we can buy a policy there and pay double what we're paying now. Yay for us.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 "And I don't understand why you're turning a blind eye to those employees that are seriously being affected by this. It's real." I'm not turning a blind eye, I'm pointing out that the media coverage of these people threatening to cut people has been shown mostly to be either sour grapes or posturing by these people like the Papa John's guy. And yeah, if he insists on firing people or cutting back on their hours, that is his fault. As for your situation, I'd like to buy it, but I just don't see it. Because unless you make over 250 K, your taxes do not go up. And you're obviously in California; all the reports coming out of California are that most people's premiums are going to go down, not up. if yours in fact are going to go up, you're in the minority. Perhaps because you make a lot of money? I don't know; I don't know your situation, but you would appear to be the anomaly.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>which of course she isn't because of her immigration status.<< Well, that's Republicans for you.
