Originally Posted By SuperDry From the article: <<< “The OLC said they really like richness and depth and the layers of the primary story, the secondary story and the tertiary story. Some of the justification for that was driven by the fact they have the highest rate of return visitation per year. They are nuts about the backstory. They want to be able to talk to the guests if the guests have a question. They want to be knowledgeable - they hate being left speechless. Each land has one sentence to sum it up and then it has a paragraph, then it has a three page treatment, then it has a bible that has the backstory of who lives where - even if a name just appears on a sign - and we had to provide this because if we didn’t do it they would have made it up. That was held over our heads as a vacuum that needed filling.†Steve Kirk. >>> That's really interesting. This stuff must exist in English somewhere. It would be fascinating to get a hold of. It would seem that it could be published (probably only in Japanese) as a rather large narrative and photo book, and enough people would buy it to make it worthwhile to publish. I love stuff like this. It’s said within WDI that everything begins with story. It’s interesting how important story was in the design of TDS. Throw tomatoes at me if you must, but look at DCA: what’s the story behind anything at Paradise Pier, other than that this is a re-creation of a seaside amusement park where the rides have no story? That is, the story is that there’s no story. Great. Putting DCA aside, I think it’s interesting that story has always been the bedrock of WDI design and reportedly was heavily involved in the design of TDS, yet the author almost seems to be holding a richly-developed story against the park in that it doesn’t allow his imagination enough freedom to fill in the missing pieces. Yet, we hear about how wonderful Expedition Everest is, even though that has a heavy background of story AND a high degree of realism (painstakingly so, in fact). This was mentioned in #49, which I’ll get to in a little bit.
Originally Posted By MagicalNezumi Perhaps the LP Magazine folk should ask SuperDry to write an article or two. Good reading there man. -- MagicalNezumi
Originally Posted By SuperDry Leemac mentioned how the true icon of the park was the Fortress. “Fortress Explorations†is considered an attraction, and consists of the fortress itself and the ship (which I see from the website is called the Renaissance). When I first read leemac’s assertion about the Fortress, I thought it was odd, as I had always thought that the icon was “obviously†Mt. Prometheus. But then the discussion in this thread turned to the Fortress vs. Aquasphere, neither of which seemed fitting park icons to me. But it all just now snapped into place – not just about the park icon, but about the whole theme behind the park. When talking about TDS or more generally the second park in Tokyo, the first question people ask always is “what is it about?†meaning what is the theme of the park, and how is it different from DL/TDL? My answer has always been that it’s “sea-based,†but that’s not really a good explanation as people think of something like SeaWorld. But this talk about the Fortress being the icon just made me realize that it’s not really “sea based†– the recurring theme of TDS is actually “exploration.†The description of Fortress Exploration on the official website is “Wander aboard the Renaissance, an authentic recreation of a galleon used during the Golden Age of Exploration. [then referring to the fortress itself:] Explore and experiment with many wondrous machines and scientific instruments throughout this interactive play area.†Many of the attractions are based on exploration: JTTCOE, 20K, and Indy. This also explains why Sindbad and his Seven Voyages were used as the basis for that attraction, rather than Aladdin. Harrison Hightower was an explorer (and a thief). The SS Columbia is about to depart on an ocean voyage. Magellan has a restaurant named after him. And, whenever there’s an announcement in the park, the English version always ends with “Enjoy the rest of your journeys at Tokyo DisneySea,†not the rest of your day, stay, or visit. So TDS is primarily about journey and exploration, not about the sea, but uses the sea as a common thread and backdrop. But, journey and exploration isn’t shoved down your throat in an overbearing manner (obviously not, since it took me until now to figure it out!). Wow. I see TDS in a whole new light now, and I have a much better way to explain it to others when asked.
Originally Posted By TDR_Fan << When I first read leemac’s assertion about the Fortress, I thought it was odd, as I had always thought that the icon was “obviously†Mt. Prometheus. But then the discussion in this thread turned to the Fortress vs. Aquasphere, neither of which seemed fitting park icons to me. >> I'm really confused now. The official website seems to claim both the AquaSphere and Mt. Prometheus as being the park symbols, but no mention of the fortress. It's hard determining which one is the true icon of DisneySea.
Originally Posted By The Goddess Mara And maybe it's best that way. What is the icon of every Magic Kingdom? The Castle--which is also the Weenie. What's the icon of Epcot: the geodesic dome--which is also the Weenie. What's the icon of Animal Kingdom: the Tree of Life, which is also the Weenie. What's the icon of Disney-MGM Studios (now): the Sorcerer's Hat--which is also the Weenie. What's the icon of Disney's California Adventure: Grizzly Peak--which is also the Weenie. SO WHAT'S THE ICON OF TOKYO DISNEYSEA: it's Mount Prometheus--which is also the Weenie. I don't care what the parks PR people say. It's Mount Prometheus.
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>What's the icon of Disney-MGM Studios (now): the Sorcerer's Hat--which is also the Weenie.<< As built, the icon was the Earful Tower, which was located in an off stage area. >>What's the icon of Disney's California Adventure: Grizzly Peak--which is also the Weenie.<< Not really a weenie, as it is not located in such a way as to draw people forward. That's one of the (many) problems with DCA-- the visual cues are so poorly planned that people literally have no idea where to find things.
Originally Posted By The Goddess Mara I'm not interested in what corporate execs say, or PR flaks, or even Imagineers whose agendas change depending on which way the wind blows from above. The Weenie at the Disney-MGM Studios NOW is the Sorcerer's Hat. And the only thing that could possibly qualify as Weenie at DCA is Grizzly Peak. I take empirical evidence--things I can see to be true--over most other evidence any day of the week.
Originally Posted By Roger55 I am looking at my OFFICIAL TDR 2007 Calendar. On the bottom of each page are silhouettes of "icons" from TDR. For TDS they are, ToT, Aquasphere, Stormrider plane and Port Discovery weathervane, spires of Mermaid Lagoon, and Mt. Prometheus. No sign of any fortress.
Originally Posted By TDR_Fan Looking at my DisneySea Music Album, I can see several distinct "weenies". I see Mount Prometheus (along with the fortress), the Temple of the Crystal Skull, Mermaid Lagoon spires, the StormRider plane, and the S.S. Columbia. Logically, the icon of DisneySea should be Mount Prometheus. It is the most dominant structure in the park and is located at the center just like all past icons. The AquaSphere may be in the park logo, but I think that Mount Prometheus is the true icon of the park. It has to be; it fits all the criteria of one.
Originally Posted By SuperDry Looking at my Resort Line ticket purchased at TDS Station (each station has its own ticket stock that's sold only at that station and has a design that changes over time and commemorates that station), it depicts Mt Prometheus, some spires in Arabian Coast, the masts of the ship in front of the fortress, the front of the Horizon Bay restaurant, and the Aquasphere. That's an interesting selection of items from TDS (especially Horizon Bay). Regarding what's the official icon and/or weenie, I don't think it's all that important. If you were to take a poll of guests, I think that without a doubt the answer would be Mt Prometheus. When I was talking about the Fortress above, I was thinking more along the lines of what the thoughts internally are and might have been during the design phase. If you put yourself in the frame of mind of a park designer prior to construction, and needed to pick the single entity in the park that best describes what the park is all about, I can see how the Fortress would be the most representative choice.
Originally Posted By TDR_Fan I've always known that the theme of the park was exploration and adventure. It was evident everywhere; from the catchprhase "Where Imagination and Adventure set sail" to everything inside the MiraCosta, DisneySea has always been depicted as a journey that you (the guest) have to make to get to various and exotic ports of call. The bronze Mickey and Donald statues sitting outside the park entrance support this theme even more. If you've noticed, all the characters dress up as explorers and have compasses, telescopes, and maps. There's also a lot of depictions of galleons in the park, further promoting the exloration theme.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney Yeah, it was ALWAYS about exploration!! I don't understand why anyone wouldn't get that. Look at the port themselves, all places that are shrouded either in mystery or where real everyday places people travelled to by boat in the past. The fact that Mickey is dressed in Columbus style clothing tells you that from the beginning. It's NOT just about the destination, its the journey as well. Once again, look at most of the attrations: Indy, 20,000, JTTCOTE, Sinbad and Stormrider (all the E-tickets btw) they are ALL about exploring. Again, this park is truly remarkable because it captures it theme better than any other Disney theme park save DAK. SuperDry, seriously, YOU should be writing for somebody dude . You made me appreciate the park even MORE and I wish I had time to comment on all that you wrote, because you made some strong points here and ironically increased my love for this park even more. The fact that mysterious island is 20 feet above land IS impressive. And yes, the icon of the park FOR ME will always be Mount Pomethus, but the fact that there are several others in the place like the castle and the 'awful' aquasphere tells you how remarkable this place is. Of couse, MOST think that shiny hubcap in DCA is TRULY 'Awful' with a capital A, but the TALES team has nothing but praise *sigh*. And yes, DCA WOULD'VE stayed out of the discussion (okay, on my end anyway ), but once it was cited in the article and especially the author's view that it's a superiour theme park (and that's fine!), he opened the door. Yes, we all know their view on this for a looong time now and I think we are guilty of the fact we let our past knowledge of their POV influence or viewpoint of the article more than it normally would. Again, I'm guilty as charged lol, but it goes back to the constant hypocrisy of their view of TDR vs the other parks which I said over and over again. The fact you bought up Everest Expedition (which I know really little about, only seen a picture of it) as a heavily recreated look of the real thing while adding a heavy story to it without any reaction from them tells me that. If it was thrown in TDS, we wouldn't hear the end of it . But I don't know, I'm one of those freaks that likes detailed theming and well nurtured story in his Disney parks. In DCA my imagination set sails, but not in a good way . Unfortunately, the budget and idiotic decisons in that place proved their imagination never made it to the port.
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>I'm not interested in what corporate execs say, or PR flaks, or even Imagineers whose agendas change depending on which way the wind blows from above. The Weenie at the Disney-MGM Studios NOW is the Sorcerer's Hat. And the only thing that could possibly qualify as Weenie at DCA is Grizzly Peak. I take empirical evidence--things I can see to be true--over most other evidence any day of the week.<< The problem is the interchangeable use of the terms "weenie" and "icon." (Specifically, that the Hat at Disney-MGM is the icon, and weenie.) A Disney park icon is a recognizable symbol, used by the Company in a shorthand way to represent a park. A "weenie," as defined by Walt, is a visual marquee that draws people forward. An icon can be whatever the corporate shills decide. A "weenie," on the other hand, is the result of specific design decisions.
Originally Posted By TDR_Fan <<Again, this park is truly remarkable because it captures it theme better than any other Disney theme park save DAK.>> I've always felt Animal Kingdom to be the most "Disney" park next to the Magic Kingdom at Walt Disney World. The central theme of animal conservation is very well done (though I prefer DisneySea's exploration theme) and something Walt always believed in. They did a great job on the park, though many people feel that the conservation theme is forced down their throats (this problem is evident in Kali River Rapids and Kilimanjaro Safaris). <<And yes, the icon of the park FOR ME will always be Mount Pomethus, but the fact that there are several others in the place like the castle and the 'awful' aquasphere tells you how remarkable this place is. >> Same here. I've thought of Mount Prometheus as the park icon from the moment I first laid eyes on the park. It truly is the most impressive structure in the park and it's always paired with Cinderella Castle at Tokyo Disneyland in ads and logos. And regarding the AquaSphere, I don't think it's that bad. Sure it doesn't fit the criteria of an icon (reasonably tall/large, located at the center of the park, etc) but it's charming and impressive nonetheless.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< I've always known that the theme of the park was exploration and adventure. >>> So I'm curious: in the past, when asked by someone that knew nothing about TDS, how did you describe the park? Did you do so in terms of exploration and adventure? <<< It was evident everywhere ... >>> Of course I had seen all of the things you describe, but I never put two and two together before. I guess I'm slow on the uptake sometimes. But the sense of adventure had come through loud and clear, even if I didn't consciously know it. And I think that's Disney magic at work. Although we talk about this stuff ad nauseam on LP, most guests don't - they may not even understand why they like DL more than other theme parks, but knowing why is not a necessary component to enjoying it.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< SuperDry, seriously, YOU should be writing for somebody dude . You made me appreciate the park even MORE and I wish I had time to comment on all that you wrote, because you made some strong points here and ironically increased my love for this park even more. >>> Well, thank you for the kind words. Actually, reading Lost At Sea increased my appreciation for the park, and that is what I was trying to convey, so I guess I was successful.
Originally Posted By TDR_Fan <<So I'm curious: in the past, when asked by someone that knew nothing about TDS, how did you describe the park? Did you do so in terms of exploration and adventure?>> Sort of. I basically described that the theme of the park is based on the exploration of the sea and the ports resemble the fictional places you travel past as you explore the world by sea.
Originally Posted By disneywatcher >> But I think the author’s opinions on DCA are relevant to the topic at hand. << I recommend that anyone puzzled by the opinions of those who think DisneySea isn't as good as DCA -- or, to put that another way, that DCA is better than DisneySea -- should watch the new-season episodes of this year's "American Idol" on FOX, or, if you live outside the U.S. (or aren't into that type of TV show), to try to catch at least a few glimpses of it. Observing people who are both totally tone-deaf and yet very confident in their talent and ability, and who become quite insulted -- even furious -- when they're told they have no reason to be, is a lesson worth keeping in mind when trying to understand conflicts in the rating or judging of almost anything, Disney theme parks included.
Originally Posted By The Goddess Mara As much as I enjoy DCA, there can be no rational arguement made that it is in any way equal to, or superior to, DisneySea (even though it has more attractions. )
