Originally Posted By TDR_Fan Again, where is the proof? I'm looking at an official list that includes all shows and attractions and see the same amount as I do at DisneySea.
Originally Posted By SuperDry From the article: <<< One thing that had puzzled me from the “It’s a Go!†launch for the park in 1997 was the capitalising of the word SEA in the park logo. Apart from MGM in the Studios name, no other logo highlighted its particular theme through what appeared to be an acronym. Markers in the Fortress indicate the discovery element so keenly desired in the park design is achieved through the name The Society of Explorers and Adventurers and with it the true narrative of the park’s identity. >>> I think I can hear the echoes of endless discussions on this very topic within WDI back during park design. The term “Society of Explorers and Adventurers†better describes the park than the word “sea.†Shoehorning this into the park name by use of an acronym with DisneySEA is rather clever. I get the sense that at least at some point, the proposal was to make this emphasis much more evident than it is in the park today. This wouldn’t be the first time that the level of detail of some WDI creation that makes it into the final project was “backed off†for one reason or another. #55 said: <<< I forgot to mention one point I found in the article. It says that there's a correlation the S.E.A. and the DisneySea logo. What I find interesting is that the the word sea is capitalized in the logo is because Tokyo was capitalized too. The whole logo was meant to be in capitals but the Disney font had to remain the same. The name has always been Tokyo DisneySea, not DisneySEA. While I think the fact that the S.E.A. plaque is suggesting the overall theme for the park is logical, I always thought that the "seas" theme was evident through the park. >>> I’m not sure that I agree with this. The Tokyo Disneyland logo does not have Disney in the “Disney†font, so I don’t think it’s valid to conclude that it had to be done for the TDS logo. It’s interesting that the capitalization for Tokyo Disneyland is the same in both the logo and when the park name appears in text, whereas it’s Tokyo DisneySEA in the logo but Tokyo DisneySea in text, both of which are different than Tokyo Disneyland. I know that internal discussions about such minute issues can go on seemingly forever - I’ve been involved in them myself over this very issue (not for Disney, mind you), and there are various reasons why things may be done differently in the logo vs. text. But between what the markers say in the Fortress, the Fortress’s central role with the theme of the park, and what they chose for the logo, I have little doubt that at least a secondary meaning of SEA in the park name is as an acronym.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney <<As much as I enjoy DCA, there can be no rational arguement made that it is in any way equal to, or superior to, DisneySea (even though it has more attractions. )>> AGREED!!!! That's why it's always complexing everytime one of them tries to argue this point. It's okay to say they LIKE DCA more than TDS, fine, but to argue it's a BETTER park is what makes the other 99.98767% of us go huh?????? Yes, this stuff is subjective, but DCA and TDS are on COMPLETE oppositie ends of the theme park spectrum. The only thing that even puts them in the same sentence is that they both happen to be Disney parks, but NO WAY does one person go to DCA and then TDS and say DCA is clearly on top of the food chain lol. And BEFORE people here say, "well, that's just what someone believe", again that's fine, but its ludicrous to say DCA is the true mark of a Disney park. That's what most insulting about it ESPECIALLY since they been trying to rehaul that thing (they are on plan #321 as we speak ) and all the quick fixes and 'placemaking' shows DCA's flaws indepth. TDS just needs more attractions, period. Also, If ANY of us here argued Knotts Berry Farm is superiour to Disneyland, my LP id would be revoked . To me, when the DCA vs TDS issue comes around, THAT'S how it's compared to in my mind: DL vs KBF and while they both have their own qualities and all that, it's NO question which park stands out each and every time. Same for TDS. It's just a remarkable park regardless how much annoying story the place has .
Originally Posted By Dlmusic <<As much as I enjoy DCA, there can be no rational arguement made that it is in any way equal to, or superior to, DisneySea>> Sure there are. What about: The best theme parks are those that have raft rides California Screamin' is such a fun roller coaster and more exciting than the rides at Disney Sea I've never found Arabian or Italian architecture that interesting, I much prefer the boardwalk theme of Paradise Pier Now obviously the above arguments are certainly in the minority (I don't even agree with them), but you could certainly come up with rational reasons why DCA is better. It is a subjective thing. Now you can argue the collectively most people would agree that Disney Sea is better, which is almost certainly true, but that doesn't mean the people who like DCA better are wrong so much as they have a minority opinion. I believe that even if a person has a small minority opinion it still doesn't make them wrong. However, I also feel that the person needs to understand they are in the minority and make sure they have a clear argument about why they have that opinion to avoid the masses thinking they are off their rocker.
Originally Posted By TDR_Fan I agree with Dlmusic. There will always be people who think one park is better than the other. I've had people argue that Six Flags is better than Disneyland, and they used some pretty rational explanations too. They think that the roller coasters beat the rides at Disneyland any day and don't care much for the "kiddie adventures". They just didn't get the theming at Disneyland and thought everything looked fake and pointless. They would much prefer riding roller coasters all day in a boardwalk atmosphere.
Originally Posted By barboy I am far closer to WorldDisney's take in that at some point one has to step back and get real. Sure one can try and argue that a Motel 6 is superior to the Mira Costa but how credible is that.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Opinions are just opinions, though. Barboy is right - a minority opinion doesn't make one "wrong." If one loves the biggest, baddest roller coasters and think that's what makes a park great, he's probably going to think some place like Cedar Point beats DL hands down, as DL only has 3 fairly tame coasters, compared to Cedar Points 12 or 13 extreme ones. That's what makes the world go 'round, as they say. I also think people are being a bit unfair to the author. I haven't been to TDS, and to me it looks terrific, (and although I enjoy DCA, I'm assuming I'd enjoy TDS more), but if I had to sum up the article in one sentence, it would be "why, considering the theming is so good, the design so solid, etc. etc., does this place not quite 'do it' for me the way it 'does it' for others?" And then he tries to figure it out. His conclusions don't have to be valid for anyone but him. I often do that with a movie that has gotten raves from critics, friends, etc. And then I go see it and think "well, I enjoyed it, but it wasn't all that. Why? The acting was good, the direction was good, the effects were good... yet it didn't sort of 'come together' for me. Why?" And then I try to answer that question for myself. I was that way with the LOTR movies. I think they were probably the best three movies possible, given that source material. But the source material doesn't really "do it" for me. I'll take ANY Preston Sturges comedy from his great period of 1940-44 over any of the LOTR movies. (And if you don't know Sturges or his movies, do yourself a favor and rent them!) I'm sure at least one of the LOTR movies will end up on the new AFI list of 100 greatest movies ever. I wouldn't put them there. I'd put probably 3 of the Sturges movies there. I know that's probably a minority opinion. And you know what? I don't care.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 ^^Very valid point. And exactly why I haven't suggested Lindsay get a lobotomy because he enjoys DCA more than TDS ;-) Ultimately, everything comes down to personal tastes. I saw the new Beatles-inspired Cirque show 'Love' recently and considered it one of the most enjoyable shows of any kind I have ever seen. But I attended with people who aren't big Cirque lovers in general and their reaction was more of 'eh ... we paid $140 a ticket for that!' Now, far more people love Cirque shows than hate them, but it doesn't mean those who do are wrong, crazy or even have bad taste. Just means it doesn't appeal to them. So long as they don't attack the 98% of the folks who love them, they can feel anyway they choose. The only point I brought up was why a magazine/site that prides itself on being pro-Disney to a fault would write a negative review piece on TDS (even if it's just one man's opinion.) There are plenty of 'negative' topics that the Disney community are passionate about that would be interesting to read about. Like why DCA is a failure, for example. Even if Lindsay (and Lee) love DCA, they clearly are in the tiny minority (even within the company) and it might be interesting to read why they think the park is what it is. Or having seen firsthand just how bad staffing issues are at both WDW and DL, and how that clearly negatively affects many guests' visits, one would think that would be a more pressing and obvious topic if Tales/LP.com is going to take a negative slant. But I guess the bottom line is it's their mag and they're free to push whatever agenda suits them. I look forward to visiting TDS this year and I have a feeling I'm going to be in the majority, but who knows ...
Originally Posted By TDR_Fan << So long as they don't attack the 98% of the folks who love them, they can feel anyway they choose>> But that's the thing. Leemac has attacked me in the past for stating I liked something in TDS more than at DCA.
Originally Posted By DigitalDisney I'd love to see both of these official attraction lists. Hell, I'd love to see the official attraction lists for all Disney parks. There is just no way TDS has the same amount of attractions as DCA. If you're going to look at the official attraction list, then DAK will have just about the same amount of "attractions," although we know that's nowhere near accurate. I have a feeling some of TDS's official attractions are going to be transportation (the el and the boats) and things like the fortress. Off the top of my head, my non-transportation attraction count for TDS is 11 plus the attractions in Mermaid Lagoon (Journey, 20K, magic lamp, carousel, sindbad, indy, raging spirits, aquatopia, storm rider, tower, and whatever is playing in the ss columbia). The thing we can all agree on is that TDS has a higher percentage of E-Tickets compared to the other Disney parks. No contest there.
Originally Posted By TDR_Fan And doesn't DCA have areas just for guests to explore too? They count as attractions on the official list too. Why shouldn't the steamer boats or electric railway count? They let you see wonderful sights and are no less attractions than the Disneyland Railroad or canoes. Here's the list if anyone is curious. California Adventure: Attractions Golden Zephyr Orange Stinger Sun Wheel California Screamin' Grizzly River Run Maliboomer Mulholland Madness Soarin' Over California Twilight Zone Tower of Terror Golden Dreams It's Tough to a Bug Muppet Vision 3D Flik's Flyers Francis' Ladybug Boogie Heimlich's Chew Chew Train Jumpin' Jellyfish King Triton's Carousel Monsters, Inc. Mike & Sulley to the Rescue! Tuck and Roll's Drive'Em Buggies Questionable Attractions Disney Animation The Bakery Tour Bountiful Valley Farm Mission Tortilla Factory Seasons of the Vine Redwood Creek Challenge Trail Princess Dot Puddle Park Tokyo DisneySea Attractions: DisneySea Transit Steamer Venetian Gondolas Journey to the Center of the Earth 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea Flounder's Flying Fish Coaster Scuttle's Scooters Jumpin' Jellyfish Blowfish Balloon Race The Whirlpool Mermaid Lagoon Theatre Sindbad's Seven Voyages Magic Lamp Theatre Caravan Carousel Indiana Jones Adventure Raging Spirits StormRider Aquatopia DisneySea Electric Railway Tower of Terror Big City Vehicles Questionable Attractions: Fortress Explorations Ariel's Playground As far as real attractions go, DCA has 19 and TDS has 20. As you can see, DCA has far more "questionable attractions" than TDS. Counting those, it brings its attraction count to 26 while TDS has 22. So if you really want to get technical and include every single kiddie area, DCA has more attractions. But take the real attractions and TDS has more. Note that shows which run on a set schedule are not included, so this takes out Aladdin, Big Band Beat, Mystic Rhythms, etc.
Originally Posted By barboy "a minority opinion doesn't make one "wrong."" You bet! But, anyone who tries to tell me that a Mini Cooper is a superior auto than a Porsche 911 or a Rolls Royce loses so much credibility that I feel that I can not have an intelligent conversation with that person. Same with the Disney Sea vs DCA arguments. The attention to detail and theming as well as the service of Disney Sea is 5 times better than DCA.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 No doubt. But, again, that assumes that detail and themeing are preeiminant in the person in question's mind. They're very high in my list of criteria, but not everyone's. The roller coaster enthusiast may say that Cedar Point is a far better park than Disneyland OR dca OR tds. I can't put LOTR in my list of greatest films even though I admire the craftsmanship. It just doesn't speak to me. Different strokes for different folks.
Originally Posted By disneywatcher >> And exactly why I haven't suggested Lindsay get a lobotomy because he enjoys DCA more than TDS << People like Lindsay can have any opinion they want. It's just that I don't want them to have the responsibility of dreaming up and developing a Disney park, anymore than I wouldn't want people who think that McDonald's Big Macs are fine cuisine given the task of creating a great restaurant.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 ^^^Totally agree. I can enjoy a burger as much as the next guy, but when someone tells me it's better than a filet mignon at a fine steakhouse that's when I say they have simpler tastes than I do.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney Okay, This is my issue of the 'which is better' question explained a little more, yes, I agree it's all subjective, no doubt, but for ME, there are certain Disney elements a park has BESIDES just the attractions that puts one park in a different league than another. Us being fans, we ALL have them. In my opinion, TDS is the quintessential Disney park (did I spell that right ), the themeing, the STORY, the queue's, it's strong aesthetics and attention to detail, the fact every major attraction tells a story and so on, THOSE are what makes a Disney park for me. Sure, you can EASILY argue a person who likes Cedar Point will like it more and think its better than DL, but they are looking at it from a completely different criteria than what MOST of us are looking at when we look at a Disney park, and yes, that's MORE than okay. I come from the hood, Compton, Noooobody I grew up with past the age of 9 liked DL. It's allll about Magic Mountain for them. That's cool, but what they are looking for in a theme park is very different than what's in a Disney theme park, so completely understandable. But, as Disney fans, MOST of us looks at the same criterias, even though there are different levels and variations to that criteria. DL naturally IS the model we base the rest around. To me, unless you don't like DL park itself, it's hard to look at a park like DCA and honestly with a straight face say it sucessfully hit those elements that we refer to as a Disney park. No, won't bore you, we know them well lol, but it's truly, truly strange to me when you have one park (TDS) that leaves no stone unturned (and maybe that's the problem for some) in creating an immersive, theme filled world of characters, adventure, fanciful rides, exotic locales and drop jaw awe inspiring archtecture (spelling I know) everywhere you go.....and then look DCA. Sorry, there is NO comparison. You walk in DCA and there is barely a que that you are in 'California' (zzzzzzzzzzzzzz) other than the Golden Gate Bridge and the hub cap. Paradise Pier does NOTHING in terms of story. Route 66 is a complete joke. HPB is fine, but its been done before in MANY other parks, MGM being the best example . GRR is truly beautiful, but also, done before and if you're not riding anything, it doesn't keep you there like New York Harbour does, Mystery island or the Ventian harbour area. And again, the FACT that they want to rehaul all this stuff anyway tells me they finally 'get it' and knows that park does not, in anyway, hit what most people think of as key Disney elements just as a car person can look at a a '65 Ford Mustang and then look at a '04 Ford Taurus and tell you which one is the classier car. For ME, there are certain standards that people can look at and say, "This is what makes a Disney park." Yes, people will argue some and question others, but when we walk in a Disney park, we KNOW we are in a Disney park, period. TDS is waaaay above that standard IMO. DCA barely passes the wire and since the Disney company basically came out from the beginning and SAID DCA was some 'new experiment' (i.e. cheap and less splashy), they were trying hard to elimenate many of the elements we come to know but shamelessly still think people won't care because Disney is on the marquee and only a few hundred feet from DL. They were wrong and they failed big time----GOOD!!!!! So yes, I can care less if someone likes DCA more than TDS, KBF more than DL or whatever, but if you HONESTLY think DCA is a better "Disney" park than what constitutes TDS as a Disney park, there is REALLY something wrong there, sorry, opinion or not. Yes, people might like the rides better, maybe its more fun, no problem, but that's NOT what has been said. It's been said over and over that DCA is a better made park and, in turn, a better made 'Disney' park I can NOT buy that, especially when about 95% of the majority think its anything but a true Disney park in a lot of people's minds. Listen, I personnally will pick going to Denny's than some 5 star French restaurant anytime, but I'm smart enough to know that there is definitely higher level of quality, service and presentation found at one place vs the others.....I just think hamburgers taste better .
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <when you have one park (TDS) that leaves no stone unturned (and maybe that's the problem for some)> Yes, that's pretty much what the author said. By filling in all the blanks, TDS doesn't leave enough room for the visitor to do so, in his opinion. I don't know if that would be my reaction (I highly doubt it, I think the place looks great), but it was the author's. I guess I just don't quite get the level of opprobrium heaped on the author here, who said time after time how well done the elements were, but then tried to figure out why, given all the positives, the place didn't quite "do it" for him. And then said why he thought that was. It's an opinion. Yet it seems to offend people somehow. Kind of like when one of my friends asked me what I thought of Lord of the Rings, and I was lukewarm. "What??!! But x was brilliantly done." "Yes, it was." And y was brilliantly done." "Yes, it was." And on and on. I agreed with everything he said. Yet the movie just doesn't speak to me - it just doesn't.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 ^^Yes. And that is perfectly OK. The only way there becomes a problem is when Person X (not you, Mr. X) says 'I don't get/like TDS and therefore it has some intrinsic problems.' I don't like the LoTR movies either. And they were very well done. But I wouldn't then extrapolate that since I didn't 'get' them they were somehow not made correctly ... or they just weren't good. I think a lot of my own opinions and tastes, but I don't assume that if everyone likes something that I don't there must be something wrong with the product ... unless we're talking about WalMart ;-)
Originally Posted By Kayoss <<Fortress Explorations Ariel's Playground>> These are, next to Swiss Family Treehouse/Skull Rock complex in Disneyland Paris, the best walkthrough attractions Disney has EVER accomplished. They are "triple E attractions" in the walkthrough categories! Fortress Explorations has dozens of rooms, interactive displays, optical illusions, hidden rooms...the list goes on and on. If you like exploring-type walkthroughs, it will BLOW YOUR MIND. You can spend 3 hours here easy.... again.. if it's your type of thing. Ariel's Playground, while not quite as expansive as Fortress, is an EXTREAMLY underrated, meticulously detailed walkthrough.... again with caves, interactive surprises, hidden rooms, secrets, and tons of special effects. As I've said before... it's the "Little Mermaid" dark ride, without the ride itself. But the sets are full-scale, and beautifal. This isn't an attack on DCA. I like DCA. But the only thing that comes CLOSE to the level of detail in either Fortress Expeditions or Ariel's Playground is the "Sorcerer's Workshop" area in the Animation attraction in DCA. Anyone who knows the parks in depth knows what I'm referring to. In my opinion, there is simply no way either Fortress Expeditions or Ariel's Playground could be considered 'questionable' attractions. They ain't. I'd say the little tot-sized rides inside Mermaid's Lagoon could qualify as 'questionable', but I'm not a child (and that's what they're designed for). But those two walkthroughs? Not a chance. They're enjoyable for all ages, and all who appricate outstanding Disney park design.
Originally Posted By TDR_Fan I agree with your assessment on Fortress Explorations. Very immersive and atmospheric; a true "E-ticket" experience in my opinion. I did very well spend over 2 hours here and even got lost due to its labyrinth like design . I spent a long time looking at the pendulum, waiting for it to knock over another piece .
