Originally Posted By wahooskipper It's just a good thing that Democrats don't put activist judges on the bench. I almost got that out with a straight face. (Not a fan of activist judges on either side of the aisle. And, I look at the first Bush win much they same way as I look at the Ohio State win over Miami for the National Championship. Miami should have never let Ohio State into the game.)
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Maybe instead of cowtowing to "fierce opposition" Obama saw priviledged information that made him make an intelligent decision to retain Gitmo, the Patriot Act, etc. I mean, if we can give him credit for making the right decision on bin Laden why can't we give him credit for changing his mind on a few of these items once he got into office?*** You may be right. If so, even more disappointing. Freedom requires some risk, and if you don't allow the people to be free you skirt very close to a police state and that's where we're at now (dangerously close...not THERE yet but still). ***I haven't seen a story yet that said the enhanced interrogation tactics played NO part in the eventual killing of bin Laden. I've seen many stories arguing how much of a role enhanced interrogation played*** So easy to demand proof of a negative, ain't it Wahoo? There's no way we'll ever know for sure (unless you secretly work for the CIA and are keeping quiet about it lol), but the facts as I understand them was this was a FRESH lead, and the info came around LONG after President Obama had (re-)abolished torture as a technique. Now, I've also seen some articles that claim the torture actually made the situation WORSE, and if they'd interrogated in normal fashion we could've gotten Osama way back in 2003 or so. Care to refute THOSE?
Originally Posted By Mr X ***It's just a good thing that Democrats don't put activist judges on the bench*** lol. Beyond the fact that the term "activist judge" is a very fluid and malleable (not to mention incendiary) term, it is true that they BOTH do it. Scalia is the perfect example of an activist judge, as is Ginsburg truthfully. Both will frame their arguments to "conform" with the law no matter what it takes to vote the way their guts tell them to. Scalia a Constitutional PURIST? Bah. Only when it suits him. And Ginsburg is guilty of going "Constitutional Purity" herself, when it suits her agenda. Passholder, feel free to rip to shreds my amateur assessment of how the law works. I'm sure you will be quite able (because really, I was being quite unfair to Justice Ginsburg ).
Originally Posted By wahooskipper What I've heard is that the nickname of the courier likely came from enhanced interrogation. This is what got the ball rolling, so to speak. In later interrogations (not necessarily through enhanced methods) klm and others lied about that courier which helped further. There is no doubt that freedom requires risk. But, I do refute the idea that we are nearing a police state in America. Outside of flying and the obvious security checks involved I've not felt my freedom jeopardized in the least since 9/11. I guess the closest thing to it might be having to bring more documentation with me when I had my license renewed this year. And, if doing so captured a whole lot of people who had illegal or false identification then I really don't care.
Originally Posted By Labuda "Bush cant get credit for Gitmo,The Patriot Act,Homeland security ,Advance interrogation methods or anything else which helped get Osama" Actually, Bush gets credit for all of the evilness you named here, Donny, and NONE of that had anything to do with the current administration locating and eliminating the threat of Bin Laden.
Originally Posted By Labuda ""besides the fact that the first time around he wasn't even democratically elected" ahhhhhhhhh the democrat version of the birther movement." Seriously? There's one BIG difference here, Donny. Bush was not elected democratically. Our Supreme Court stopped the recounts before they could be completed. He did not win. He was awarded the Presidency when his side made nicer with the Supreme Court.
Originally Posted By Donny If you want to start a thread on this I am fine but in the end result Bush did democratically win and further studies have proved it.Now I know you Bush V. Gore fans hate facts this has been looked into and Bush still won.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Only because of a legal technicality in the courts. They did not even count the votes from abroad like my Mom's, or the service men and women's. Only right wing think tank studies shows it was democratic. But by his 2nd term, most of America had lost their heads, because he was that time, and that still has me scratching my head.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***What I've heard is that the nickname of the courier likely came from enhanced interrogation. This is what got the ball rolling, so to speak*** Got a source?
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I used to belive in democracy, before 2000 in America, and before 2010 in the UK. Now, it is a sham.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***But, I do refute the idea that we are nearing a police state in America. Outside of flying and the obvious security checks involved*** Travel restrictions are often the first step towards creating a police state (think USSR and Germany, and think hard about the way they ran their regimes). Combine current TSA tactics with the border control fiasco (and not just on the border any more!), and you've got the makings of a police state right there. Just slap a red white and blue sticker on it and call it "American", but a spade is a spade and America today is a VERY different country from the one I grew up in. Like I said, I don't think it IS a police state, but it's getting dangerously close at this point.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***in the end result Bush did democratically win*** No, he was awarded the office from the bench. What part of that don't you get, Donny?
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I used to belive in democracy, before 2000 in America, and before 2010 in the UK. Now, it is a sham*** Don't lose faith in Democracy, bro. It will continue to flourish, as it should. Just think of the world 500, or 1000 years ago and see how far we've come. Big Picture, man. Keep the faith. (and no that doesn't mean I think it will return to the US or the UK anytime soon, recent events are more discouraging than encouraging...PARTICULARLY the loathsome "Patriot Act" (I even hate the disgusting 1984 misnomer on it...makes me sick).
Originally Posted By Mr X ***The part where you omit that Florida called it for Bush. That part *** Wrong. And ignorant.
Originally Posted By Donny Florida agrees with me on this one Mr. X <a href="http://election.dos.state.fl.us/elections/resultsarchive/Index.asp?ElectionDate=11/7/2000&DATAMODE" target="_blank">http://election.dos.state.fl.u...DATAMODE</a> Facts are horrible things
Originally Posted By Mr X <a href="http://archive.democrats.com/display.cfm?id=181" target="_blank">http://archive.democrats.com/d...m?id=181</a> I can provide partisan links, too (doesn't mean EITHER are true, that would take some real research and a curious mind, which you lack).
