Originally Posted By Witches of Morva ORDDU: Very true leemac, duckling. It's very sad to watch Epcot sink further and further into whatever it is now...
Originally Posted By Yookeroo "I've been to Epcot with many different groups of people of varying ages, from toddlers to my 60-something parents, and each group regarded Maelstrom as a must-do. Maybe my experience is different from the general public, but I think that Maelstrom's value has been inflated because of the lack of other rides in World Showcase." True. But a must-do isn't the same thing as untouchable.
Originally Posted By Witches of Morva ORDDU: In my case it's the same thing. I'm a must do and I'm not certainly touchable!!!!
Originally Posted By Witches of Morva ORDDU: Sorry. I meant to say that I AM quite touchable!!! ORGOCH: Oh yeah? Who'd wanna' touch an old theme park hag like yerself?
Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA EPCOT Center was one of the most innovative and exciting Disney theme parks ever. First visited in 1986 and even though I had done extensive reading about it, it still blew me away. It still exceeded my expectations. Future World was amazing -- all those AA figures, even the variations of OmniMovers in each of the attractions. What a spectacle! And then World Showcase - just a beautiful part of that overall concept. Right down to the people working in the pavilions representing their native countries. The American Adventure. What a spectacular pavilion and show. Amazing. Norway pavilion was built in what 1989, and that's the last new pavilion that World Showcase has seen. All because they can't get sponsorship money? :-/ Heck, they haven't even updated 'Impressions de France' since Day One. I can see the 'Frozen' ride leading to 'Ratatouille' in France. And if that's how Disney can justify getting funding, then so be it. It's disappointing to me. But then again, I haven't visited the WDW Resort since 1999.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "The Toonization of the park is heart-breaking to me as I always felt there was a way to keep Epcot's unique brand of entertainment and education. We just don't even try any more." Well said.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros Jim and Lee, I completely agree with your feelings on the grand spectacle that Epcot used to be. It's really a sad place these days, since it can't seem to figure out what to be and just feels dead and empty. Even in the days of the 'bland' omnimovers, it always seems like there was something exciting to do; these days, Future World seems like a barren wasteland with hardly anything in it, and the shopping mall in the back of the park isn't faring much better. In a way, the current state of Epcot really symbolizes everything that I dislike about the current management style. Instead of aiming to exceed expectations and deliver products that nobody knew they wanted, we're getting more and more of the same dumbed down schlock while continually cutting things that they think people won't notice. There are still glimmers of greatness here and there (SSE isn't quite as bad as people make it out to be, thanks to the Phoenicians) but it's becoming less and less inspiring. Yes, the park's age is part of the problem, but they've also done absolutely nothing to counteract it for years. It's sad to see something with so much promise turn into a poorly done version of what they already have everywhere else >>Heck, they haven't even updated 'Impressions de France' since Day One.<< They upgraded it to digital projectors about a year or two ago, but other than that it's the same. That said, I kind of don't want them to touch it, since I don't think that they would be able to improve upon it. Yes, there are a couple scenes that look pretty dated (the bike race and Champs Elysees come to mind), but overall it has remained largely timeless. I think this is partly due to the fantastic score, and partly because it focuses more on landscapes and architecture than people Somehow, it manages to feel far more current than the Martin Short Canada movie did, even right after it opened!
Originally Posted By FerretAfros Apparently someone playing DL's Frontierland game thinks it's a bad idea too... https://twitter.com/DisneyDragon/status/510911716540956672 : )
Originally Posted By Friar Tuck and Roll Every attraction update in Epcot for over the last ten years has seemed to have some sort of synergy tie in with some other Disney property. Even without the toonification of El Rio Del Tiempo and the Living Seas, other projects also kind of had the same treatment. Mission Space was sort of based around the Mission to Mars movie (which was sort of based on the old tomorrowland attraction), Test Track's new overlay while not specific does have very strong visual ties to Tron, the movie tie-in 3-D film of Honey I shrunk the audience influenced both redesigns of the imagination pavilion, and I cant watch the pre-show of Soarin with Patrick Warburton without thinking of his voice over work both for Disney and other companies. While I still am against this, if Disney is really hellbent on starting to tie World Showcase pavilions to animated features, I would love to see them do something extraordinary, like making a true 360 animated Brother Bear attraction to replace O Canada.
Originally Posted By Moon Waffle I don't understand why changes like this are such a shock...it seems to me that the general public has proven with their dollars that toon tie-ins are what they want in their rides and attractions. The last two large non-character based efforts in California - TL98 and DCA 1.0 - were both considered complete flops, for various reasons. In DCA's case, they throw in a bunch of toon-centric rides, shows - even a whole land - and suddenly it is massively popular and considered a huge success. Based on this track record, if I am Disney I am never doing another non-toon themed ride or land, ever.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "The last two large non-character based efforts in California - TL98 and DCA 1.0 - were both considered complete flops, for various reasons." Buena Vista Street, a major part of the "DCA 2.0" redo, has been considered the sleeper hit of DLR. Yes it's Disney based, but the land doesn't have any major character branded attractions or features to speak of. It's pretty much DCA's counterpart to Main Street and has been very well received, so it is possible to create something that people enjoy without hitting people over the head with Disney movie characters while staying true to each park's individual mission.
Originally Posted By oc_dean ^^^ very well said Hans ... you did better than I could. >>....it seems to me that the general public has proven with their dollars that toon tie-ins are what they want in their rides and attractions.<< I don't see that is how it's done at all... Disney force feeds this newer mantra .. and some people just buy into it. While others, protest it ... and starting to wane off of their decade's long love of Disney parks, like I am. (Their ever increasing prices are doing a good job of waning off it, anyway.) >> The last two large non-character based efforts in California - TL98 and DCA 1.0 - were both considered complete flops, for various reasons.<< Lets go over the first and foremost reason. NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT CHARACTER BASED. But because their EXECUTION sucked from the first moment on. In the case of HKDL's Mystic Manor, Grizzly Gulch, Animal Kingdom's Everest ... among the few other original non-characters based attractions built ... It is QUITE possible to create a mind-blowing original attraction that turns out profitable. >>In DCA's case, they throw in a bunch of toon-centric rides, shows - even a whole land - and suddenly it is massively popular and considered a huge success.<< It's also the first series of attractions to be built in a while, where the budgets didn't suffer, and the quality level didn't take a hit .. like TL98 went through. >>Based on this track record, if I am Disney I am never doing another non-toon themed ride or land, ever.<< Based on nearly 60 years of original attractions that continue to generate interest in generation after generation ... it's obvious what they need to continue to do. It's called BALANCE. A mixture between the both is not going to hurt the bottom line. Only keep it stabilized.
Originally Posted By dagobert Although Maelstrom will be gone in January, I can't wait to see EPCOT again. I was my favourite park back in 2008. However, attraction wise EPCOT is a bit disappointing. Besides Soarin, Test Track and Mission Space, there aren't more rides I'm really interested in. We don't go to EPCOT because of the rides. We go there, because we like hanging out in World Showcase and have some drinks in the different countries. It's a relaxing park for us.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros Well said guys! >>I don't understand why changes like this are such a shock...it seems to me that the general public has proven with their dollars that toon tie-ins are what they want in their rides and attractions.<< In large part, I think it's because Epcot as a whole (and World Showcase more specifically) has always been somewhat of a hold out against the character invasion. Yes there are already some character attractions (Nemo and Gran Fiesta) but those more-or-less stayed in the spirit of the original attractions in those locations, which just weren't very good. This one will be replacing a ride with a little more 'there' there, one that was generally appreciated by guests (though I guess that's debatable), and one that reflected the pavilion's original mission; while the others were declining by degrees, this is one massive hit >>The last two large non-character based efforts in California - TL98 and DCA 1.0 - were both considered complete flops, for various reasons.<< In addition to the reasons Dean stated (ie, TL98 and DCA1.0 were crap because of their budgets), we also shouldn't downplay the differences between DLR and WDW guests. DLR guests tend to be steeped in Disney tradition and history, and seem to only accept one version of what 'Disney' means. WDW guests tend to know a lot less about Disney specifically, and tend to enter with more of an open mind about what it means to be 'Disney', in part because (until the last decade or so) their parks offered vastly different experiences; with the changes that have occurred, the 4 parks are starting to look more and more alike, and the whole vacation experience is starting to blend together more
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<We don't go to EPCOT because of the rides. We go there, because we like hanging out in World Showcase and have some drinks in the different countries. It's a relaxing park for us.>> That's just a depressing thought when I think about all of the amazing rides that EPCOT Center used to have. Back in the day, I could spend almost a full day in Future World alone - Horizons, World of Motion, Journey into Imagination, etc, etc - all amazing experiences. Sad that they've let that all slip away over the years.
Originally Posted By mrkthompsn I like it. I'm OK with the toonification of World Showcase. ~It's OK~. Chill. (get it? "chill"?)
Originally Posted By dagobert >>>That's just a depressing thought when I think about all of the amazing rides that EPCOT Center used to have. Back in the day, I could spend almost a full day in Future World alone - Horizons, World of Motion, Journey into Imagination, etc, etc - all amazing experiences. <<< Don't get me wrong, we love the rides too, especially Soarin', Test Trak, Mission Space and Spaceship Earth in Future World. Journey into Imagination wasn't bad, but wasn't good either. The same with The Seas with Nemo and Friends. Universe of Energy was okay, but it's not a top priority. We loved World Showcase because of the many different shops and restaurants. In World Showcase we don't care that much about the rides. Gran Fiesta Tour was nice and so was Impressions of France. I hardly remember Maelstrom, but all other attractions in World Showcase were closed when we have been there.
Originally Posted By leemac <<I don't understand why changes like this are such a shock...it seems to me that the general public has proven with their dollars that toon tie-ins are what they want in their rides and attractions.>> The saddest part is that no-one who has followed the US parks in recent years is surprise. This is Imagineering 101 now. As others have said it isn't proven. Outside the US HKDL has built three mini-lands and only 1 is based on an existing property. Mystic Manor is arguably one of the greatest attractions ever built and it isn't grounded in any existing character tie-in. Quality attractions will always be popular no matter whether they have a tie-in or not. Tower of Terror is a tour-de-force of imagineering excellence but for D/MGM guests it is based on an unfamiliar property (it doesn't resonate much outside the US hence TDS's version being completely different). Quality wins out no matter. The problem is that no-one wants to take risks in the US parks any more. It all has to be franchise-led. Hence why an astounding $325m was dumped on RSR alone. That would have paid for more than 2 Mystic Manors and I know which I'd rather have.
Originally Posted By leemac <<The last two large non-character based efforts in California - TL98 and DCA 1.0 - were both considered complete flops, for various reasons.>> Only 1 reason - money. Baxter had absolutely nothing to play with for TL98 - Rocket Rods was something like $35m. DCA was also underfunded. Tim Delaney spent less money on the whole of Paradise Pier than was spent on the non-RSR sections of Carsland. And he delivered 9 attractions.
Originally Posted By dagobert >>>Tim Delaney spent less money on the whole of Paradise Pier than was spent on the non-RSR sections of Carsland. And he delivered 9 attractions.<<< Tim Delaney did a very interesting interview with the Season Pass Podcast about DCA. He also mentions all the cost cuts.
