Originally Posted By WilliamK99 My problem with this officer, is 9 times out of 10, his schooling is paid for and he recieved a bonus. IMO he is full of crap and looking for attention, and possible a job on the way out. If I was his commander I would force him on the plane, get him to Iraq then let him suffer for a year on the Smurfiest detail I could find that does not involve combat. Then after the year, boot him out......
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Seems an interesting and reasonable take. But also, I would be keen to see him pay back his education as if he were on a corporate sponsorship.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy I would be surprised if this guy could even show his face on base anymore and be safe. He is a wanna be deserter who seem to have read a few to many left wing web sites.
Originally Posted By sherrytodd I'm truely on the fence on this one. He signed up and went through with the training. He knew that taking this route meant that he would not have the option to pick and choose what he would want to do. There were other recourses he could have taken if he was having problems that did not involve the public display, yet he choose this course of action. The military would collapse if everyone took his road, and I don't believe it is right. On the other hand, I truely do not know what is in his head. If he truely does believe in what he is doing, then perhaps he should do what his heart is telling him. What he is doing is going to come with it's own demons that he will have to carry with him for the rest of his life. If he's just grand-standing for the attention, then I believe that he is doing something very wrong. I can not say one way or the other what his motives truely are. Everyone is going to attach their own meaning to this, but only he really knows why he is doing this. I am thankfull to you WilliamK99 for seeing your duty through. I know this is a betrayal to you and all the other brave men and women who regardless of their personal opinions, have stuck with it. Thank You.
Originally Posted By Shooba >>I would be surprised if this guy could even show his face on base anymore and be safe. He is a wanna be deserter who seem to have read a few to many left wing web sites.<< Nice to see that everyone ELSE can discuss this issue without resorting to petty partisan jabs and put-downs.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Hes an idiot mele. The war is not immoral and it's not illegal. Saddam was immoral, liberating the Iraqis was noble.>> I'm not convinced the war is either moral or legal. It doesn't make any difference though. When you join the military you know you will be asked to do the most frightening and horrible thing a human can do; take another human life. He knew that going in; it is not his place to determine when and where to kill people. I see nothing noble or honorable about refusing to honor a pledge.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom Hold it here. Yes he made a pledge. But suppose for an instant some crazy person was the President of the US and ordered our military to capture WDW and "take no prisoners" You mean to tell me an individual soldier can't make a moral or ethical decision on his own? The presedence for this was the WWII Nazi trials in which the majority of Nazi officers defended their inhuman actions in court by saying that they were just carrying out orders given to them. At some point "we" all have to make a moral and ethical possision in life. We can't blame off our individual responcibility or actions on nameless others.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom I'm sorry, but my last post where I said carry out.... reminded me that its close to lunch here on the east coast. And I very much wanted to say carry out Chinese........MMMMMMM mushi pork!!!!!
Originally Posted By friendofdd I'm not sure about the morality of the war, but, it seems to me, if it is illegal that impeachment proceedings against the President would have been started a long time ago. People may call it illegal, but there doesn't seem to be substantial proof or they would be taking decisive legal action.
Originally Posted By sherrytodd I believe that the soldiers are required to make moral and ethical decisions. I was just following orders is not an valid defense. But it gets to be a sticky situation if everytime the military is needed, they have to make sure that first every soldier has no moral objections to the task to be performed. So there is no excuse for say murdering innocent victims in a rampage as it is immoral, yet I don't think that, "I'm sorry, I don't feel like participating in this war today" is a valid moral decision. Like I said, I'm on the fence on this one, but for the military to perform, the people who enlist must be prepared to do things that the average everyday citizen would not or could not.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<The presedence for this was the WWII Nazi trials in which the majority of Nazi officers defended their inhuman actions in court by saying that they were just carrying out orders given to them.>> There is a HUGE difference between being ordered to commit a war crime and being ordered to serve in a war you don't personally believe in.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom sherrytodd summed up what I was trying to say very well in post # 29.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom I just want to state that I am not on the fence. I think this soldier has a right to say on moral and ethical ground he will not fight in this war. However, I think he should also experience the consequences for his actions.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Ditto post #33. I think the idea of forcing him to go to Iraq might seem like a satisfying 'that'll teach him!' thing to do, but I think it would put soldiers serving with him in harm's way. I have not experienced combat, but I would imagine that it is essential that your fellow soldiers have each other's back 100% with no hesitation. If the military rules for this involve prison time, or fines, or whatever, then he should be prepared for those consequences. As William said, there were other ways than a press conference to be a consciencous (sp?) objector.
Originally Posted By alexbook I'm curious about something: Did this guy join up before or after the war started? (My apologies if this info has already been posted and I missed it.) It seems to me regardless or questions of morality or legality, it would take an absolute idiot to have joined the military any time in the last four years and not to expect to be deployed to Iraq. It's not as though this war has only just been sprung on him. On a personal note: My nephew has only recently returned from his second tour in Iraq (safely, thank goodness). Most of the family (myself included) object to the war. He didn't. He joined up, to do his duty, as he sees it. I may disagree with my nephew on the necessity of this war, but I have to admit that he went in with his eyes wide open.
Originally Posted By Eric Paddon Since we are an all-volunteer army, then no one forced this jerk to sign up for a military career. If he was willing to do that, and make a living in a career made possible by the tax dollars of the United States, then he has an obligation to fulfill ALL of the requirements expected of him in that job. But if he's not willing to serve his country and live up to what his obligations are supposed to be, then he should receive the stiffest punishment imaginable under military justice, or else we disgrace and shame all of those who have willingly paid the sacrifice of serving their country. At the very least, this bum doesn't deserve a taxpayer funded military career any longer.
Originally Posted By gadzuux Wow - let's review. Jerk - disgrace - shame - bum. Again, what is it that makes you so special as to freely denigrate anyone you don't agree with? >> then he should receive the stiffest punishment imaginable under military justice << You're so "old-testament". All rules and no mercy. Nice.
Originally Posted By Eric Paddon "Again, what is it that makes you so special as to freely denigrate anyone you don't agree with?" Because in this instance, it's demonstrating a little common sense. A person who willingly volunteers to put on the uniform of this country and then refuses to obey orders is a bum who isn't fit to wear the uniform, and is in the process stiffing the American taxpayer by refusing to do the work he is supposed to be doing if he wants to enjoy the privileges of having a military career. If you want to toss common sense out the window and let anarchy be the principle by which the United States military should operate, I'll let that be your problem.
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