Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 >> One of the complaints that we always hear about is that the multi-attraction pavilions are confusing to people - they don't understand what is in there and for many it is a trek over to the pavilion to discover it too. No idea if that is reality. I don't really recall it ever being uber-busy like The Land. << <<I believe the vastness, and concept alone, could be a little overwhelming for a lot of new visitors to Epcot.>> I dunno ... you could say the parking lot can be a little overwhelming to a lot of guests too. WoL was the last pavilion built under the original EC model. Huge show building with multiple attractions, exhibits, dining and retail. The only FW pavilion that still really follows that is The Land. It's actually ADDED an E-Ticket. >> Personally I found the decor very dated even in the early nineties. It just felt rather cold. << <<I never really thought of it as dated, but it definetly felt cold to me.>> Color schemes can be changed. I never felt it being cold, although I've heard that label pinned on many EPCOT pavilions. I, personally, think that vast dead zones in theme parks like WoL now is (except during two fests a year, got ya covered apologists) are really cold. Kinda like going to a mall where a third of the shops are closed.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 >> I forgot to add that Kirk/Trousdale worked on Cranium Command too. The days when WDFA used to enjoy working on park stuff! << <<So what's changed Lee?>> I'm not even reading ahead to see if he answered yet ... but I'll tell you what's changed in 20 years: EVERYTHING! It starts with the fundamental business plan/model. Recall, as Lee points out when real topflight animators worked on theme park projects ... now go look at the outsourced crap on Stitch's GasFest and ask yourself what hasn't changed. (turning the page to see if Lee indeed responded)
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I'd include in that same concept the Communicores, Spaceship Earth and even World of Motion, though not to the same extent. Oh, and Journey as well (I remember thinking Magic Journeys and the Imagination Station were far cooler than the "main" ride...not to mention the dancing fountains). Back in the opening days it was clear one was expected to spend lots of time (even a couple of hours) exploring just one pavilion.>> Absolutely, X. You were EXPECTED to be able to spend hours in say Land or Imagination or, even, Motion. And certainly Seas when it debuted. They were destinations to be explored. Not E-Tickets to be checked off commando style. <<Personally, I loved it. In fact, my very first visit to Epcot back in 1983 (I think, or maybe 84) I never even made it to the countries section...we were just so enamored with Future World and it took all day just to see it all.>> From my first visit (opening day), I could find myself lost in any of the FW pavilions ... and later when I finally was pulled away, in most of the WS nations too. <<But for the "okay, where's the next ride!?" types, yeah I can see how they don't dig it. Particularly since the multi-attraction idea involves *some* "big stuff", and *some "small stuff", and they get pissed when they get stuff with small stuff along the way.>> I don't believe going with the LCD approach is what got Disney where it is today (and certainly not where it was 20 years ago). That's the Walmart approach. It runs contrary to all those Walt quotes that WDW is plastering on construction walls (I'm sure we have 743 pics up or will soon enough). If folks are only interested in rides, I'd argue that not only is EPCOT not for them. But that really no Disney park (even MK) is either. Disney is about storytelling in an immersive fashion that transports guests to other times and places. Attractions and, especially, rides are only part of the sentence. Maybe the active part, but part nonetheless. Walmarting because that's what some folks like is ANTI-Disney.
Originally Posted By mousermerf MP: Yes. It's hard to explain everything that happened - but if there was a short stick to be drawn it went to Wonders every time. One example is the system for automatic doors - nearly every pavilion has them in some fashion. Test Track's preshow rooms needed them as some had broken. Maintenance there was told to take it from Spaceship Earth's wheelchair access door. SSE's management team gets wind of this, throws a stink over it and plays the ADA card to their defense, and has the same system removed from one of Energy's theater exit doors. Energy spends a few days going "Why doesn't this one door work?" until someone figures out what happened by tracing the papertrail then goes "go take one off Making of Me." Making of Me is then closed for half a day while no one else is willing to give up their door pump thingy.
Originally Posted By LindsayC > I forgot to add that Kirk/Trousdale worked on Cranium Command too. The days when WDFA used to enjoy working on park stuff!< I think that is a slight disservice to later products like PhilharMagic - with the work of Ranieri and Keane - under the direction of George Scribner (who had directed Oliver and Company) - and you’ve only just written about all of this! Then there was the use of Eric Goldberg for both Disneyland’s 50th film and Gran Fiesta Tour - along with Mark Henn (okay I know that was outsourced to them) - and also The Magic Lamp Theater at DisneySea too. I won’t comment on SGE as I can barely remember it, I give that attraction a wide berth! The biggest lament however should be the loss of George Scribner from WDI.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I, personally, think that vast dead zones in theme parks like WoL now is (except during two fests a year, got ya covered apologists) are really cold. Kinda like going to a mall where a third of the shops are closed.*** Absolutely. The worst was all those years Horizons sat shuttered, OCCASIONALLY but almost never open. Knowing there was a great attraction inside gone to pot was a real bummer, not to mention it sat front and center on that side of the park...like a mausoleum or something. Ugh!
Originally Posted By leemac <<The days when WDFA used to enjoy working on park stuff!< I think that is a slight disservice to later products like PhilharMagic - with the work of Ranieri and Keane - under the direction of George Scribner (who had directed Oliver and Company) - and you’ve only just written about all of this! >> I wasn't suggesting that they don't work on park-related material but that is used to be a given that the parks would partner with WDFA. Now a lot of the product is outsourced. <<The biggest lament however should be the loss of George Scribner from WDI.>> Completely agree. A truly wonderful animation director. At least he is consulting for WDI even if not a cast member any more.
Originally Posted By leobloom >>Unfortunately, hot pink - bright aqua -- and vivid golden yellow, become dated very quickly.>> Shoulda been called Wonders of Miami Vice instead.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> Recall, as Lee points out when real topflight animators worked on theme park projects ... now go look at the outsourced crap on Stitch's GasFest and ask yourself what hasn't changed. (turning the page to see if Lee indeed responded) << So outsourcing is purely responsible for the lack of enthusiasm for WDFA doing Park stuff?
Originally Posted By MPierce >> It's hard to explain everything that happened - but if there was a short stick to be drawn it went to Wonders every time. << I'm just having a hard time trying to understand the reasoning behind setting that pavilion up to fail.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Well, the first thing that came to my mind, is how labor intensive WoL was, compared to the other pavilions. Jim & merf... was WoL expensive to staff in its heyday? Did it require more CMs than the other pavilions?
Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA It doesn't seem that it would have been much more expensive to run than The Land, or World of Motion. But I'm not sure.
Originally Posted By leobloom It seems like they would've had to update Cranium Command at some point. I loved the show (the preshow especially), but the SNL references would've been lost on a lot of audiences today. Of course, an outdated product hasn't stopped TDO on anything else, so I suspose they wouldn't have cared about that either.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Well, the first thing that came to my mind, is how labor intensive WoL was, compared to the other pavilions. Jim & merf... was WoL expensive to staff in its heyday? Did it require more CMs than the other pavilions?>> I don't see how it needed significantly more labor than Land ... or even Seas and Imagination. It just sounds like another convenient excuse to close it. Rest assured, if Disney had lined up another vict ... I mean sponsor, WoL wouldn't be DoA.
Originally Posted By mousermerf It actually did take more labor. When staffed properly, it took 14-20 people to run Wonders. Most other attractions can operate with 5 or less. At 5 people, Wonders can barely function. (2 at BWars, 1 Cranium, 1 MoM) On a normal day there are only 4 positions at Universe of Energy. M:S only uses like 5 depending on how busy they are (essentially identical positions as body wars in its heyday). Don't forget, Land got rid of boat-riders and it only takes 1 person to run a theater attraction. Seas got the Nemo ride with load/unload replacing preshow, film, and sea cabs operators.
Originally Posted By mousermerf Fun game: Goto Epcot at opening and count the CMs in various costumes at rope drop. Those are all the CMs from the various guest control positions in the attractions - essentially everyone who is not tied to a dispatch button or deadman switch to keep the thing operating. It'll give you an idea of staffing levels, as most only have 1-3 additional "critical" positions.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> Fun game: Goto Epcot at opening and count the CMs in various costumes at rope drop. Those are all the CMs from the various guest control positions in the attractions - essentially everyone who is not tied to a dispatch button or deadman switch to keep the thing operating. It'll give you an idea of staffing levels, as most only have 1-3 additional "critical" positions. << I really am surprised at the low number of CM's used. I never really bothered to count them, but for some reason it seems like there's CM's everywhere.
