Originally Posted By RC Collins Oops... sorry... the second part of my post is meant for another thread.
Originally Posted By utahjosh Those really long posts are hard to respond to. Too much work at one time!
Originally Posted By RC Collins Okay... sorry... I'll repost in multiples... disneyland1 >>WHY the HECK are they calling *IT* a MAN?????<< She is not an “itâ€. She is a human being with inherent worth. I disagree with some of her decisions, though (clearly). But I don’t think they should be illegal. ShivaThDestroyer >>It doesn't seem like they're hurting anyone and we have no evidence that this couple would be bad parents.<< They intentionally created a child in a situation where the child will not have a father, and that is wrong and harmful. Sorry, a woman pretending to be a man is not a father. And she hurt herself with the surgeries and hormones.
Originally Posted By RC Collins DAR >>About a few years ago we had an individual who worked on my floor different department who was undergoing a sex change operation. According to people in (now) her department his wife threatned to leave him for another woman. So to be with his wife he decided to take the necessary steps to become a woman. (S)He finishes the process and guess what happened? His wife decided yeah I don't want to be with you regardless of who you are.<< Talk about a man’s wife having “them†in a jar! >>I don't have any idea how she didn't go completely and totally batcrap crazy and just completely throttle her ex-spouse is beyond me.<< He was messed up to begin with to agree to such a thing. Don’t like your partner as-is? Don’t marry them. Never expect your partner to change because you got married (except, perhaps, staying monogamous). They will change… they’ll get older and run-down – not necessarily more mature, or sober, or whatever.
Originally Posted By RC Collins Mr X: >>It's not nearly as cut and dried as you wish it were, RC Collins, and I think that you are looking at this through angry and prejudiced eyes for whatever reason, to put it mildly.<< Well if it isn’t cut and dried, then who are you to say I’m wrong? It’s all so murky, maybe I’m right? I wouldn’t wish that kind of confusion on anyone. But don’t expect me to go along. >>***I can understand that someone is attracted to someone of the same sex. Fine. (No, I’m not equating that with transgenderism, even though they often lobby together.)*** What's the meaning of this sentence? I get the impression you are trying to imply that homosexuality is okay, but that there is something "wrong" with people of trans gendered experience, so much so that homosexuals shouldn't associate with them.<< I didn’t want anyone to think I was equating homosexual behavior or feelings with pretending to be someone of the opposite sex (either by dress, hormones, or surgery), or “feeling†like someone of the opposite sex. They are two different things. That’s what I was saying. We see “LGBT†all of the time, but I think we ought not lump all of those together. >>Turn it around and say you don't agree with the whole "black" thing, and see how far it gets you.<< There is a difference from being born with a skin color and ACTIVELY PRETENDING to be someone of the opposite sex, going so far as to mangle your body. >>How is THAT person supposed to figure out who they are?<< Very few of these people were born with something wrong with their genitalia. I’m referring to people who are born with normal genitalia of one sex and decide to pretend to be someone of the opposite sex. >>Or, if you want to make the argument that "black" isn't a choice or whatever, try saying "I don't agree with the fat thing", and think about whether or not that makes you sound mean or hateful.<< Any obesity caused by overeating or lack of exercise (unless you were bedridden with injury) is a choice. I have extra weight, and I know exactly why I do. I should lose it. Yes, it is easier for some people to avoid obesity than others. It is still a choice for most of the obese.
Originally Posted By RC Collins Imadisneygal: >>Someone who is born with sex characteristics and genetics of both sexes (ie: ovaries and a penis, or another combination of both sexual organs) is called intersexed (not hemaphrodite - that word is not used anymore in medicine or psychology). People who are intersexed often have additional chromosomes so they have the genetics of both sexes.<< Thanks for the update. I’ll try to remember that. >>Additionally, it bothers me to see someone say that they "disagree" with people who are transgendered. It's not something that's available to "disagree" with. It just is.<< I can’t disagree with anyone’s feelings. I can disagree with their actions. There’s a certain atheist libertarian-liberal talk show host who worked for many years on a sex/love call-in show, and who has met and interviewed transsexuals. He points out (and it is just his experience, but clearly he’s no conservative or Bible-thumper) that they never seem quite happy or satisfied. They always seem to think “just one more surgery†will make them complete.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <. Smear the Queer was the naming because it rhymed. There was no malice behind it.> Yes, and no. No on an individual level, probably. When I was a kid growing up in SoCal, we had that game, and called it "Kill the Man With the Ball." Despite the word "kill," it was not malicious; it was just a way for kids with lots of energy to burn off to burn it off. All you needed was a ball and an open area. But imagine what it felt like when I moved to the east coast and discovered it was called "Smear the Queer." I knew I was gay by then and it was pretty weird to have friends of mine using the term so casually. I knew that (at least in most cases) it wasn't malicious on an individual level, yet the "macro" message was clear: being gay was being "lesser" and at least implicitly, it seemed like even my friends bought into that. It wasn't unlike being a VERY small kid, when the first version of "eeny meeny miney moe" I learned contained the N word. My little friends and I recited it without malice, and I'm sure my parents heard us do it many times and said nothing, in the early 60's. By the mid 60's, they said "don't say that" and we substituted something else (monkey, I think). On an individual level it wasn't malicious - on a macro level, sure it was.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I didn’t want anyone to think I was equating homosexual behavior or feelings with pretending to be someone of the opposite sex (either by dress, hormones, or surgery), or “feeling†like someone of the opposite sex.*** You are really going out of your way to invalidate this, aren't you? Why the big difference? It's a similar plight, with extremely similar prejudices and hatred attached. Interestingly, my aforementioned friend talked about the way she is treated as this "take the way people feel about gays and how they treat them, multiply it by 100, and you've got what we go through". This thread is certainly proving this to be true.
Originally Posted By Mr X **By the mid 60's, they said "don't say that" and we substituted something else (monkey, I think).** I thought it was "tiger". Which makes NO sense, actually, since tigers don't really have toes that you could "catch".
Originally Posted By ShivaThDestroyer >>She is not an “itâ€. She is a human being with inherent worth.<< well said. >>They intentionally created a child in a situation where the child will not have a father, and that is wrong and harmful. Sorry, a woman pretending to be a man is not a father. And she hurt herself with the surgeries and hormones.<< RC, I have to disagree with you on both of those points. I do not believe it is "wrong and harmful" for a child to be brought into this world without a father. There have been countless children brought into this world where the father was not a positive influence and in many cases much more harmful than if the child did not have a father. I certainly believe that child rearing in a traditional marriage would, in all likelihood, a little less complicated but with love, patience and intelligence just about any problem can be overcome. Just for the record, I did not meet my own father until I was about 13. I also have friends, who happen to be gay, that have raised wonderful, well adjusted children that any parent would be proud of. IMHO, the parenting is more crucial to child development than who the parents are. >> And she hurt herself with the surgeries and hormones.<< I'm sorry, that's not our call to make. This former woman, now a man, may have suffered more from gender confusion and mental anguish. He is the only one who can qualify whether the pain of the surgeries was an acceptable trade-off. >>They always seem to think “just one more surgery†will make them complete.<< Unfortunately, there are many people in this world that have similar feelings about external gratification, this is not limited just to the trans-gendered. There are many unhappy people who that feel that if they just had ____ everything would be perfect. Of course, it never is... >>imadisneygal, THANK YOU a million times over for explaining things better than I ever could.<< Mr X, I've always had the highest respect for imadisneygal, her warmth and well written posts in this thread are just one more reminder why.
Originally Posted By Mr X Shiva, very much agreed. The usual talking points against these sorts of situations (the gay adoption issue is oft targeted) make it sound as if the "normal" world is populated with practically perfect, leave it to beaver-esque moms and dads and that's "the way a family works". Well, welcome to the world, folks. There's a lot that ain't right with many of those families, and the kids suffer. Accordingly, there are lots of "abnormal" families, hard working single moms/dads, loving gay couples, and other folks who do great by their kids. It's an invalid argument as far as I'm concerned, but that doesn't stop people from repeating it.
Originally Posted By ShivaThDestroyer Mr X, you did it to me again. You said it better and in fewer words. It's no wonder I stay out of WE. : )
Originally Posted By Mr X Can't blame you for staying out of the shark infested waters, that's for sure.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Mr X, I've always had the highest respect for imadisneygal, her warmth and well written posts in this thread are just one more reminder why. > Agreed. And Shiva, I understand steering clear of WE, but the occasional interjection of sanity and calm and sensible opinion would be more than welcome.
Originally Posted By ShivaThDestroyer >>Agreed. And Shiva, I understand steering clear of WE, but the occasional interjection of sanity and calm and sensible opinion would be more than welcome.<< Dabob2, (blush) I'm just an old fart who's been around a while and I try to keep an open mind. World events and politics are not areas that I feel very knowledgeable about. I do peek in from time to time and read some of the posts. I've often wished I could express myself the way some of you do. You, Mr X and imadisneygal not only presented strong, intelligent arguments in this thread but also a caring, concern and respect for humanity that was hard for me to ignore. I'll be back in WE from time to time. Be gentle my friends : )
Originally Posted By imadisneygal Thanks for the compliments, Shiva and Dabob2. I appreciate them more than you know. Have a great night! And Shiva, you're not an old fart.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***You, Mr X and imadisneygal not only presented strong, intelligent arguments in this thread but also a caring, concern and respect for humanity that was hard for me to ignore.*** Very kind. And nice to read, after having been so angrily berated earlier in the thread (the poster seems to have disappeared though). Thanks.
Originally Posted By Liberty Belle >>I do not consider CHOOSING to be a different sex, a "minority". That alone disrespects the true minorities in the world.<< It's really not a choice. What person would CHOOSE to change their sex if they didn't really feel like they HAD to? Someone who felt they needed a little extra complication in their life? >>This former woman, now a man, may have suffered more from gender confusion and mental anguish.<< Totally agree. I knew a transgender girl (at least, we were all 99% sure that was the case) who committed suicide when she was 14. I'm sure her loved ones would have MUCH preferred she "hurt herself with surgeries" and gone on to live a full life. Having said that, I think if I were one of the people in this story I wouldn't have gone public. It invites too much judgement, not just on their behalf but on the behalf of all other transgender people. Their choice to make of course, but I think it's something I would have tried to steer clear of if I was in that situation. >>By the mid 60's, they said "don't say that" and we substituted something else (monkey, I think). I thought it was "tiger".<< We said "tigger" or "nickel". Neither of which made any sense, but nickel especially, they don't have toes and aren't hard to catch ...
Originally Posted By ShivaThDestroyer >>after having been so angrily berated earlier in the thread (the poster seems to have disappeared though).<< Mr X, that bothered me a bit. I've spent a little time chatting with disneyland1 and I still believe that she is a nice person. I was even the one who found her roaming around in DL General shortly after she joined LP and introduced her in Community. She has a great sense of humor and a strong love of Disney. She is fairly new and we both know that WE is not the kind of place where someone new should come in casually and expect to say something unpopular without some sort of retaliation, even WE veterans are often on the receiving end. The difference is that the veterans know each other, look upon each other as "family" and, realizing that tempers can flare, tend to get over these little faux pas rather quickly. I hope we haven't scared her off and that she gets to know you and the other LP'ers a little better. The Mr X I know is very different from the "Nice to see you have lived up to your bad reputation here on LP" one that DL1 referenced. This is a great community and I've often stated that, for me, it has become home.
Originally Posted By Mr X Thanks, Shiva. Honestly, I expected a different response once I pointed out what an insult it really is to call a person "it", and yet she continued. I suppose she was just blinded by anger towards me at the time.
