Originally Posted By ShivaThDestroyer >>once I pointed out what an insult it really is to call a person "it"<< I really feel that it was just a poor choice of words and tempers flared a bit on both sides. You are a strong personality and people aren't usually at their best when they've been put in the defensive. I know you're willing to put this behind you, I just hope DL1 can too. Good night my friend, tomorrow comes all too early.
Originally Posted By woody >>once I pointed out what an insult it really is to call a person "it"<< Yeah, and?
Originally Posted By woody >>You know what annoys me about this? It is not a man.<< It is Not a woman either. Bizarre. At least the child will grow up with two Mommies or Daddy mommy and Uterus-less mommy.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***>>once I pointed out what an insult it really is to call a person "it"<< Yeah, and?*** And what? It's a hateful and prejudiced thing to say.
Originally Posted By Mr X To those people trying to use the "mutilation" argument... There's no doubt this is far from a perfect science now, but what if it were someday. What if, through gene manipulation and maybe cloning techniques or whatever, they really could change someones' sex to the point where it would be impossible to tell who was transsexual and who was "born that way". Would you then be okay with it? Something tells me you wouldn't. And therefore you're just using that "mutilation" argument to further explain why you don't "approve".
Originally Posted By gottaluvdavillains Look I have no problem with changing who you are - if that will make your life happier and more fullfilled! If you are born a man and have always felt like you should be a girl-or born a girl and felt like a boy - then so be it - do what it is to make you happy - really in life you should be happy - My whole point is Oprah did a whole show making a big deal about a man being pregnant - now I only saw the ads and didn't watch the show - I saw so many commercials for this it was crazy (meaning number of commercials). But the reality is this was a woman who started to go through a transexual transformation and yet didn't complete it so that she could still give birth - I still don't know why this person would want to draw so much attention to this situation - it should have remained a private affair - Really I feel this is none of our business and wish he would have not shared it with the world!
Originally Posted By ShivaThDestroyer >> It is not a man...It is Not a woman either.<< He is a person and therefore has a value and is worthy of respect. Even if the law did not recognize this person as male, manners and courtesy would dictate addressing him in the gender he identifies and is most comfortable with. >>At least the child will grow up with two Mommies or Daddy mommy and Uterus-less mommy.<< I can't argue that there will be will be issues but even traditional families have those. I can only hope that insensitive people don't add to the problem. >> still don't know why this person would want to draw so much attention to this situation - it should have remained a private affair<< I had previously posted the same concern that villains just mentioned. I'm a little puzzled why this couple appears to have sought out publicity. My first thought would be that they would want to keep a low profile and have people respect their privacy. How are you tonight, Mr X?
Originally Posted By Daddy Shiva I'm just relaxing, had a rough day doing a little remodeling on a condo I bought for DS26 to finish grad school in. (sorry about the screen name, I'm over in the smed thread, giving smedly a bad time.)
Originally Posted By RC Collins Mr X >>Why the big difference?<< You don’t see a difference between... feeling attracted to the same sex/interacting with the same sex and feeling like a different gender/dressing like the other gender and even mutilating your body to appear to be the other gender? I’m not saying to be mean to these people. I simply ask that they not expect me to go along with their “make-believeâ€. A homosexual man does not insist I go along with his game. If he hits on me (a rare occurrence) and I turn him down, he doesn’t file a lawsuit against me or insist that I *must* date him. Yet someone who is “transgender†insists I call him a woman? Not going to happen, unless he appears to be a woman and doesn’t tell me otherwise. In this case, the woman went public as “a pregnant manâ€.
Originally Posted By RC Collins ShivaThDestroyer: >>RC, I have to disagree with you on both of those points. I do not believe it is "wrong and harmful" for a child to be brought into this world without a father.<< I was a little more precise than that. I said *intentionally conceiving* the child with the intention of depriving that child of a father. >>There have been countless children brought into this world where the father was not a positive influence and in many cases much more harmful than if the child did not have a father.<< It is also wrong to conceive a child with a man who one knows will be a harmful father. >>> And she hurt herself with the surgeries and hormones.< I'm sorry, that's not our call to make.<< Oh, she’s free to do it. I wouldn’t bother to use force to try to stop her. But we can have opinions on this in general.
Originally Posted By RC Collins Liberty Belle: >>It's really not a choice. What person would CHOOSE to change their sex if they didn't really feel like they HAD to?<< Someone whose therapist thinks that is easier than dealing with whatever the real problem is? Mr X: >>What if, through gene manipulation and maybe cloning techniques or whatever, they really could change someones' sex to the point where it would be impossible to tell who was transsexual and who was "born that way". Would you then be okay with it?<< The methods you cite sound like changing a human being’s sex when they are in the embryonic stage. I don’t see what the point would be. Generally, I’m against serious experiments or unnecessary medical procedures performed on someone without their consent. I can’t pretend to know how these people feel inside. Our feelings are our own. But when I hear of someone removing perfectly healthy and functioning body parts in an effort to pretend to be the opposite sex, I think a line has been crossed.
Originally Posted By imadisneygal "But when I hear of someone removing perfectly healthy and functioning body parts in an effort to pretend to be the opposite sex, I think a line has been crossed." Psychologists and psychiatrists disagree. Transgendered people have a medical disorder. They're nor pretending to be the opposite sex, their sex and their gender do not align. Sex therapists do not just "go along for the ride" instead of dealing with the real issues. This is the real issue. Gender Identity Disorder and Gender Dysphoria are real. The syndrome starts in childhood around age 3 or so when gender identity is formed. In very rare cases, the gender does not align with the chromosomes. It happens. It's real. They're not just removing body parts in order to pretend to be someone else. Some transgendered people never have any surgery related to changing their sex. But if you knew some people who are transgendered and talked to them about their experiences before and after their transitions you might see things differently. I'm going to repost the website I posted earlier in this thread because I think it's a fantastic resource. It's <a href="http://www.imatyfa.org" target="_blank">http://www.imatyfa.org</a> I met the director of this organization and her son, who was born female, and I can tell you that the transition to being an affirmed male changed Shawn's life as well as his family's life for the better. The suicide rate among transgendered youth is very high and much is still misunderstood about the disorder - mostly because it's so rare. It's not just a feeling. It's who they are. I think the man who came out and announced that he's the first pregnant man does a huge disservice to all of the people who are suffering needlessly because of all of the misunderstanding that exists about gender identity disorder. It sort of makes a mockery of the whole thing. He should have kept it to himself. P.S. There are people you deal with in your life (maybe not on a personal level, but maybe a professional level) who are transgendered. I met several affirmed males (born female) and unless you saw these people naked before their surgeries you'd never, EVER know it. The transition from male to female is harder to hide because the estrogen does not change the voice or the adam's apple, but the facial and adam's apple surgeries are getting so good that it's even hard to tell if some affirmed females were born male or femals. Believe it.
Originally Posted By imadisneygal nor = not. We have a preview button and I didn't even use it!! ARGH!!
Originally Posted By Mr X ***You don’t see a difference between... feeling attracted to the same sex/interacting with the same sex and feeling like a different gender/dressing like the other gender and even mutilating your body to appear to be the other gender?*** Again with the hate speech (mutilation, etc...), when you didn't even answer my previous questions about it. See, I don't see a big difference in the levels of prejudice and hatred was my point. Of course the experience of such people is different. I don't see either one as particularly better or worse, just different.
Originally Posted By Mr X **The methods you cite sound like changing a human being’s sex when they are in the embryonic stage.** No. You missed the point entirely.
Originally Posted By Mr X **I’m not saying to be mean to these people. I simply ask that they not expect me to go along with their “make-believeâ€. A homosexual man does not insist I go along with his game. If he hits on me (a rare occurrence) and I turn him down, he doesn’t file a lawsuit against me or insist that I *must* date him. Yet someone who is “transgender†insists I call him a woman? Not going to happen** Okay, so if you ever lose your, I'll just say "important parts" in an accident, I'll feel free to call you a girl. I mean, without the proper parts you couldn't expect me to "pretend" and call you something your not right? Not going to happen, lady. As far as your anger or hate or whatever it is in insisting that you protest this whole sordid thing by "refusing" to call them by their chosen gender, I wonder why it's such an issue for you. Even the courts accommodate people of trans gendered experience. I don't really see why, unless you were being purposefully hateful, you'd have a problem calling someone who has an "F" on their birth certificate a female.
Originally Posted By ShivaThDestroyer RC Collins, please just call me Shiva. We're all friends here. >>I was a little more precise than that. I said *intentionally conceiving* the child with the intention of depriving that child of a father.<< >>t is also wrong to conceive a child with a man who one knows will be a harmful father.<< >>But we can have opinions on this in general.<< I'm certainly not in a position to say who's opinions are the most valid, but the first two above referenced arguments are also opinion, not fact. I also have a niece that might be a poster child for imadisneygal's latest post. She is currently contemplating surgery. I have no way of knowing if this will resolve the conflicts in her life but as someone who loves her I will do whatever I can to support her and try to make life a little easier for her. If that means at some point I start referring to her as *him* and as my nephew, that's the least I can do. I would also extend that same courtesy to any transgendered person as I don't feel they are pretending to be the opposite sex, in their minds they might very well feel that they are correcting a "mistake". If someone has had enough pain in their lives that they feel radical surgery is their only option, I don't feel the need to add to it.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Someone whose therapist thinks that is easier than dealing with whatever the real problem is?*** Spoken as someone who apparently has no idea how long and drawn out the process is. I'm no therapist, but I can easily imagine this is one of the more challenging situations that could come up. Often depressed and suicidal, confused and dealing with an extremely hostile world (See RC for details on THAT), and those that do go through the process of hormones and/or surgury and all that need YEARS of therapy before it's even allowed. No, I wouldn't think any shrink in their right mind would just "go along" with this as some sort of easy way out. No freakin way.
