Originally Posted By barboy2 ///No court, anywhere, ever, will say that with national security at stake, and that's what the government would surely argue, searches and pat downs as seen here are unreasonable./// I wouldn't be so adamant if I were you in forecasting national court behavior; Article III personnel surprise even the most renowned legal scholars periodically. ///Remember, the key question is what's reasonable./// yep, pretty much ///And if phrased in a national security context, courts will certainly say it's reasonable./// It won't be an 'if'. The gov't **WILL** invoke the old "national security" argument. But if those feel-ups are found to be too intrusive, capricious, unnecessary(and they might be)then the gov't will be S.O.O.L.. "Lifers" fly too and wait until either they or one of their favorite nephews receives a fondling. You may now call me a "J. Kerry", but that's OK.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "And that is the problem. Another plane WILL go down... with or without the screening procedures." People who are against the latest procedures are claiming "the terrorists have won" and other such nonsense. If this isn't a fatalistic point of view conceding defeat I don't know what is.
Originally Posted By Mr X The defeat is in the humiliation and harrassment we have to go through in the name of protecting ourselves from the bad guys. THAT'S how they've won. If we, the people (not the courts), collectively said NO to all this crap, then they will not have won. I'm not holding my breath though. Too many Passholders out there.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<The defeat is in the humiliation and harrassment we have to go through in the name of protecting ourselves from the bad guys. THAT'S how they've won. If we, the people (not the courts), collectively said NO to all this crap, then they will not have won.>> Exactly.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "<<The defeat is in the humiliation and harrassment we have to go through in the name of protecting ourselves from the bad guys. THAT'S how they've won. If we, the people (not the courts), collectively said NO to all this crap, then they will not have won.>> Exactly." Or not. It's the new normal. Air security was far, far overdue for stricter policies. 9/11 exploited that in spades. Shame on those of us who recognize that, I guess.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***It's the new normal*** Another way of saying they won. Look, they made this horrific attack and in response our lives changed, and not for the better. And as you and others put it, it ain't never going back to the way it was. You don't think that's the textbook definition of a terrorist success story? And now, with cheap and minor plots, they get us to jump through more and more hoops in ridiculous reactionary ways. The gift that keeps on giving (for them). ***Air security was far, far overdue for stricter policies*** I don't know what that has to do with 9/11, though it may be true. ***9/11 exploited that in spades*** How so? Everything the terrorists did before the cabin takeover was completely above board and legal. They didn't even try and smuggle anything forbidden onto the planes! In other words, they circumvented the system. That's what they do. That's what the others since 9/11 have done. And that's what the next guy will do too. And while they're busy figuring out how to circumvent all THESE new policies, the vast innocent traveling public pays the price. ***Shame on those of us who recognize that, I guess*** It's a shame that's the conclusion you've reached, but I wouldn't agree that you "recognize" the important facts in this case though.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I will NEVER accept it as the new normal. <<Definition of TERRORIZE transitive verb 1: to fill with terror or anxiety : scare>> I will NEVER let them fill me with terror or anxiety. Too bad that they appear to have done so to the majority of Americans. We have become a nation of wimps.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "I will NEVER accept it as the new normal. <<Definition of TERRORIZE transitive verb 1: to fill with terror or anxiety : scare>> I will NEVER let them fill me with terror or anxiety. Too bad that they appear to have done so to the majority of Americans. We have become a nation of wimps." Get off the f'n macho horse, for crissakes. It's called being sensible. If you want to fly, it's the new normal.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***It's called being sensible*** Frisking wheelchair bound elderly people and demanding to see prosthetic breasts sound sensible to you, Passholder?
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I'm the absolute furthest thing from macho. I just refuse to let what 19 extremists did on one day over 9 years ago fill me with fear. There are approximately 1.5 million passengers per day on American flights. The total number of air passengers killed on 9/11 (including the terrorists) was 266. So even if you held a ticket to fly on 9/11/01 your chance of dieing in an air crash was .017773%. You don't have to be very macho to be willing to take that chance.
Originally Posted By gadzuux I'm not afraid of the terrorists. But I recognize that they are out there, and they are constantly trying to do us harm. And when I say "us", I mean that literally - you and me and everyone else. So yes - I want screening before people board airplanes, and I want the luggage and cargo screened too. Crazy me. I understand that not everyone agrees with my position. But I also understand that the media has taken up the yoke of rabble-rousing on this entire issue. The news cycle over the past week has ramped the whole controversy up to a fever pitch. That doesn't help. >> The defeat is in the humiliation and harrassment we have to go through << I'm already on record as not buying into this. I don't see the humiliation and harrassment. If anything, I'm starting to feel sorry for these TSA screeners - they didn't ask for any of this, they're just trying to do a hard job and now they're being vilified in the media, which in turn creates a more overt hostility from the people they're trying to protect. As for the "oh the terrorists have won" rhetoric, this was tiresome and pedantic ten years ago - it ain't gettin' any fresher with age.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <<The defeat is in the humiliation and harrassment we have to go through in the name of protecting ourselves from the bad guys.>> Eleanor Roosevelt famously said "No one can make you feel inferior without your permission." I would submit that when it comes to something like these machines and pat-downs, no one can make you feel humiliated without your permission. I've gone through the machines and been patted down in Europe. Also, the CN Tower in Toronto has a full body scanner you have to do to go up in it. This is really only new to us Americans. Everybody has different body issues I guess, but in my experience it's been brief and all-business, and not humiliating at all. My attitude was "all right, let's do this... all done?... great..." and that was their attitude too. <I will NEVER let them fill me with terror or anxiety. Too bad that they appear to have done so to the majority of Americans. We have become a nation of wimps.> I don't think those of us who are okay with this are wimps. Come on. I know what you're saying, and agree that it's no good to be fearful all the time. I got right back on the (unprotected) subway and went back to work on 9/13/01, the first day I could (the subways weren't running on 9/12) specifically for that reason. I wanted to say in my small way that "you can't make this city cower. We're getting back to business as usual as soon as possible." Not everybody did - in fact, hundreds of thousands stayed home from work in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, and I understood that. I myself felt a little jumpy every time a plane flew a little too low for quite a while afterwards. But I wasn't going to let that keep me from living my life normally. I wasn't going to let them scare me. In fact, it's that kind of fear that led to so many people not questioning the Iraq invasion, for instance. But there's irrational fear and irrational actions, and then there's sensible precaution. So I don't see the airport procedures as irrational. I see them as unfortunate but okay. And I think it's silly to see those of us who view them that way as either constitution-haters or lily-livered wimps.
Originally Posted By barboy2 ///hundreds of thousands stayed home from work in the immediate aftermath of 9/11/// For those that weren't covered with building dust or looking for their family and friends in the rubble, THAT IS WEAK!!
Originally Posted By barboy2 ///it's that kind of fear that led to so many people not questioning the Iraq invasion/// more weakness coupled with simple minds
Originally Posted By barboy2 ///But I wasn't going to let that(9/11) keep me from living my life normally. I wasn't going to let them scare me./// Glad to read that because I don't like communicating with those that are so weak minded that they can fall for the Jedi mind trick.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>I don't think those of us who are okay with this are wimps. Come on.<< Right. The funny thing is I don't really have strong feelings either way about this. I can be persuaded that it's a terrible idea if it really is, but the increased rhetoric doesn't do much to make me a convert.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip The "wimp" comment is not specifically directed at those who support the scanning. It is a general comment about how we have come to expect the government to protect us from EVERYTHING. Frankly, I think if WWII happened today Germany would win. All the Americans would be too afraid to fight.
Originally Posted By ecdc Oh I'm with you there. I've long said if Pearl Harbor happened today we'd be the biggest province in the Empire of Japan. We are a whiny culture of entitlements. Today sacrifice is seen as weakness (I'm an American! I'll drive/buy/do whatever I want!)
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <For those that weren't covered with building dust or looking for their family and friends in the rubble, THAT IS WEAK!! > If you lived here, and/or saw it happen live, and/or knew people who died (and a large percentage of NY'ers were only one or two "degrees of separation" away - I knew someone who knew someone who died), you might have felt differently. Again, I was determined not to be scared, but everyone reacts differently to something so unexpected. Some people were just stunned and needed time - I can't call that weak, even if that wasn't my reaction.
