Originally Posted By gadzuux I don't know why they don't use dogs more. Dogs are very effective at sniffing explosives and drugs, they're "low-tech", inexpensive, and easy to come by. They even move around on their own.
Originally Posted By debtee I'm for any security measures that they deem necessary. I'd rather be as safe as we can be and know that everyone else on that plane does not have a weapon hidden, then worry about someone seeing me on a scanner or patting me down. If the plane blows up or gets taken hostage, I'm sure my first thought won't be that someone saw me naked on a scanner! While returning from London last Christmas, I was selected for a full security check by a female officer, at London Heathrow. It was a full pat down, she did touch all around my private parts. I didn't find it a big deal. It's not sexual in any way, there's no time for that. It's brief and over in a few seconds. It takes longer for them to run a wipe of your baggage, for a explosives scan. Our flight stopped at Kuala Lumpur on the way back to Australia. They were doing full security pat downs on every single passenger, not random like at Heathrow. A male officer does the men and a female officer does the women. I didn't see anyone that acted as if they were offended in any way. Most people just want to get it over and done with.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I'm for any security measures that they deem necessary*** Good, because before you know it you'll be subjected to a cavity search. It'll only take one "butt bomber" to make it happen, the way things are going...
Originally Posted By debtee ^ Way to be a drama Queen Mr X! LOL If and when that ever happens, then we will have to learn to deal with it or just stay at home and don't go anywhere!
Originally Posted By mawnck >>we will have to learn to deal with it or just stay at home and don't go anywhere!<< What we have to learn to deal with is that we are not safe. Period. There is no power on Earth ... no search protocol, no law, no investigative organization, NOTHING that can stop somebody from offing you and your family if they really want to. Also ... the terrorists are NOT out to get you. Period. They don't know you. And unless you live in NYC or LA or Chicago or *perhaps* a few other places, they don't know your town or your buildings or your airport either. These scanner shenanigans are reducing your chances of being involved in a terrorist attack from one in a million to one in a million and three. At some point you have got to say "you know, even if this does help a little, I don't want 'em doing this to me. I'll be a millionth less safe if it means some people I don't know in a room I can't see aren't looking at my 9 year old daughter's nude body." Obviously Rush's thing about the TSI being Obama's revenge for the election is absolute bat-guano coocoo, and anybody that believes it should be checked for advanced mad cow disease, but I'm very much with the "no scanner no pat-down" crowd on this one. It's just one more symptom of how completely pwned the USA is by the 9/11 terrorists.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Thing that really struck me is, Israel doesn't use em.<< I heard that too and I find that interesting as well. I'm all for a discussion about the best way to keep us safe and I tend to agree with mawnck on the odds of being hurt in an attack and the odds of the terrorists pulling something off again. If these are a waste of time, get rid of them. But whining about my body outline being seen by someone, somewhere? Lame. (The Israel thing may be because they truly don't work, or they may simply be a logistical issue; Israel is much, much smaller than the U.S. with far fewer air travelers each day.)
Originally Posted By Mr X ***What we have to learn to deal with is that we are not safe. Period*** Thank you. And deb, call me a drama queen all you want but look at the evidence over the past 10 years... 9/11 happened - no more nail clippers, other essentially harmless personal items which somehow, just maybe, MIGHT be used by a terrorist shoe bomber - everyone now removes shoes liquid explosive plot - no more personal liquids (later amended to allow tiny amounts) underwear bomber - nude imaging and invasive frisking what do you THINK will be the TSA reaction if someone stuffs some device into a body cavity and tries to blow up a plane?
Originally Posted By Mr X ***The Israel thing may be because they truly don't work, or they may simply be a logistical issue; Israel is much, much smaller than the U.S. with far fewer air travelers each day*** That's a good point, but I believe an Israeli security official directly said "we don't use them because they don't work". I'll try and find the article. To my point, all I'm pretty sure of is the fact that Israel has the BEST air security in the world...with all the hostility going on around that place, they have NEVER had a hijacked plane. Yes, they rely on profiling to accomplish it and that wouldn't fly in the U.S. (or I'm assuming it wouldn't...funny that's such a taboo when so many privacy, search, AND seizure rights get thrown out the window as long as "everyone has to do it".
Originally Posted By Mr X Found it... ***“I can overcome the body scanners with enough explosives to bring down a Boeing 747,” said Rafi Sela, former chief security officer at the Israel Airport Authority, who is now a security consultant*** <a href="http://janeqrepublican.wordpress.com/2010/06/13/how-not-to-do-airport-security/" target="_blank">http://janeqrepublican.wordpre...ecurity/</a>
Originally Posted By debtee I meant Drama Queen, in the nicest possible sense Mr X, I'm pleased you took it that way! While I do agree we are not safe, I don't think we ever have been. I guess growing up in the East End of London, through out the worst period of the IRA, has made me more used to this fact. Customs ( within Australia anyway ) already have the power to do a body cavity search, if they suspect you are carrying something internally!
Originally Posted By gadzuux >> If these are a waste of time, get rid of them. << Scanners actually save time. Much more efficient than wanding and pat-downs. More effective too - wands search for metal only, and pat downs look for 'suspicious' bumps. >> what ... if someone stuffs some device into a body cavity << That's something dogs could figure out easily and relatively non-intrusively - especially considering the alternative. >> What we have to learn to deal with is that we are not safe. << That kind of fatalistic attitude doesn't work over the long haul. We have to try, even if it's not perfect. Our enemies are clever, and they'll seek the weakest link. That's why babies and old ladies are subject to the same rules as everybody else - if you don't search the babies and old ladies, it won't be long before exploding babies and old ladies show up on flights. If we only search international flights, short hops from denver to phoenix will be the next target. If we don't search cargo, they'll put the bomb in packages. The last bomb was hidden inside cargo - we caught that one, but only because we were tipped off. We didn't catch the one before that, and a UPS 747 blew up in midair. What we're doing is far from perfect and may not work every time, and we could certainly do more. But we can't just declare the whole process hopeless and give up because people are worried about having someone see them or touch them in intimate places. I could go off on a rant about how strange american culture has become about nudity, but I won't - for now anyway. But suffice to say that most cultures don't share our body phobias and fear over nudity issues.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***That's why babies and old ladies are subject to the same rules as everybody else - if you don't search the babies and old ladies, it won't be long before exploding babies and old ladies show up on flights*** Ridiculous. Again, Israel. They don't search babies and old ladies. How many exploding baby flights have you heard about departing from Israel?
Originally Posted By Mr X ***people are worried about having someone see them or touch them in intimate places*** Oh, for the love of Pete! Dude, are you actually saying that people should NOT be concerned about being seen naked or groped? What kind of a 1984 are we truly living in when people actually say this stuff without a hint of sarcasm!?
Originally Posted By Mr X <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXDLQPfqc04&feature=player_embedded" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...embedded</a>
Originally Posted By barboy2 I'll take the patdowns and body scans/ imaging if it means more safety. Just as body checks by medics are needed to stay alive so are body checks by TSA. Staying alive via gov't search is just as important as staying alive via Dr. examining us; the goal is the same so deal with it.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I'll take the patdowns and body scans/ imaging if it means more safety*** Watch the video brutha, would you call it "more safety" if you get cancer from it? ***Just as body checks by medics are needed to stay alive so are body checks by TSA*** Exactly how many terrorist plots has the TSA foiled, Barboy? And not to beat a dead horse all the more, but if it's so essential for life and limb, why doesn't Israel do it?
Originally Posted By barboy2 ///Ridiculous./// Not at all ///Again, Israel. They don't search babies and old ladies. How many exploding baby flights have you heard about departing from Israel?/// Are you actually suggesting that just because an event has not happened that it precludes it from happening in April 2011 or January of 2013? I hope not. Babies and old ladies should be checked. And you can add dogs for the blind or disabled to the check list too. All should be checked out thoroughly before getting on planes.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Staying alive via gov't search is just as important as staying alive via Dr. examining us; the goal is the same so deal with it*** You DO realize that you're much more likely to die in a crash caused by pilot error, don't you? So if this is so awfully important, why aren't pilots subjected to breathalyzer tests and psyche screenings on a daily basis rather than checking THEM for bombs (you know, the guys who don't actually NEED weapons to crash the plane)? Wouldn't that make a lot more sense?
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Are you actually suggesting that just because an event has not happened that it precludes it from happening in April 2011 or January of 2013? I hope not*** Okay then, there certainly should now be thorough cavity searches for all passengers...a bomb in a body cavity is FAR more likely than a baby bomb. ***Babies and old ladies should be checked*** Ridiculous. But I'll say this much, many posters on this thread (BBoy being no exception) are well trained. You'll all certainly submit to the whims of any authority figure no matter how degrading or ridiculous.
Originally Posted By barboy2 ///You DO realize that you're much more likely to die in a crash caused by pilot error, don't you?/// Not necessarily---- there is no way to test future odds.
