Originally Posted By Autopia Deb I think if you eliminated the cheep-o So Cal passes, much of the over-crowding by day-trippers would disappear.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan To me it makes sense to have APs really only for traditionally non-busy times of the year, what used to be considered off season. During the peak periods (summer, Christmas time) there are plenty of visitors. But obviously Disney sees a real value in selling all those APs, with SoCal discounts and monthly payment plans. Which to me suggests that in the long run, they make a whole lot of money through the AP program. Year after year there are predictions that something "must" be done to address this "problem" and year after year, the AP program only continues to expand. So, it must be working for Disney.
Originally Posted By Autopia Deb It's clearly working for Disney. Me? Not so much anymore. I've been an AP off and on for 20 years now and I honestly don't know if I'll get another. I will certainly be taking a nice long break from the AP program. I imagine I'll get another if/when I decide to take multiple trips to WDW in a year and invest in an AP for there again, at which point I'll get the Premiere.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "So, it must be working for Disney." Of course it is, but everyone knows that discounting is not a sustainable business model for the kind of premium product and service Disney Parks strives to provide. If you look at Disney's recent financial s you can see that repeatedly the gains in profits/attendance at the resorts are continually offset by rising operating costs. At some point Disney is going to have to cut back in Anaheim or raise prices. The hard ticket holiday "parties" are an indication that they are moving in the direction of making free activities exclusive for an additional fee whenever possible. I believe this is a direct result of the heavy discounting over the past decade or so.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>At some point Disney is going to have to cut back in Anaheim or raise prices.<< They have steadily been raising ticket prices (and AP prices) year after year, recession be damned. If they truly viewed having so many people as a problem, they could end the AP program. Or eliminate the SoCal discount. Or modify the whole deal so that at every level, there were at least some blackout dates at crazy peak attendance periods. But they haven't. And attendance seems to grow and grow, not decline. So as much as just about everyone says they hate the crowds, they're still going to the park in huge numbers.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "They have steadily been raising ticket prices (and AP prices) year after year, recession be damned." I guess what I'm trying to say is that Disney will either curb or limit the discounting or it will be forced to cut back on spending. Yes, they are raising prices, but very few people are paying full price. It's a problem because once everyone is used to getting things for cheap or free they complain when they have to pay. Witness the outcry here when the pay-for-Halloween-entertainment plan was announced. By the way, APs aren't the only people getting discounts. In the past month I've received two separate emails direct from Disney advertising special resort vacation discounts. The latest one (it came today) is offering up to 30% off both the DLH and GCH, and 25% off PPH from January through April.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan But haven't they always offered discounts? The Magic Kingdom Club, various Disneyland After Dark promotions, etc? Even at a deeply discounted rate, a stay on property is generally much higher than other hotels and motels in the area. The hotel industry as a whole has gotten into the "Save 25% +" game, and I'm not sure what it would take to move away from that now. So room rices are inflated artificially and then discounted artificially.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "But haven't they always offered discounts? The Magic Kingdom Club, various Disneyland After Dark promotions, etc?" No one is saying that discounting is new. What is unprecedented is the level of discounting across the board that appears to be used to prop up attendance. At this point it's likely that the vast majority of guests visiting DL on any given day is paying full price. How can Disney continue to do this when expenses (expanding the parks, creating new shows, ongoing maintenance, worker costs, etc.) keep increasing and a large chunk of the visitors are coming in for less than the retail value of the admission? "Even at a deeply discounted rate, a stay on property is generally much higher than other hotels and motels in the area. The hotel industry as a whole has gotten into the "Save 25% +" game, and I'm not sure what it would take to move away from that now." I don't know, but wouldn't Disney's hotel operating expenses be be somewhat higher than a comparable off-site property? Look at what's being done at the DLH for instance. You can't do that kind of extensive remodel at the low end rates that most Anaheim Resort properties are charging. Which, of course, brings me back to my point... In the short term Disney may not see APs as a "problem", but I think long term it's something that I would guess they are continually reevaluating. The exclusive hard ticket parties are pretty much a dead give away that discounting has reached a limit.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt Sorry, I meant to say "At this point it's likely that the vast majority of guests visiting DL on any given day are NOT paying full price."
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>Yes, they are raising prices, but very few people are paying full price.<< We all pay the price they charge, in full, whether for a one day admission or top level AP. What is being missed here is the concept of "discount." It's a discount if it was previously one price, and is now offered for less. This is not happening with admission prices in any form. That Disney offers Annual Passes that make it possible to enter the park multiple times for a lower rate than a one day admission is more a reflection of the high rate of admission than of the so-called "discount." If prices were just that high, there would be a lot less folks inside, making it a very pleasant experience for those who could afford that higher price. And not long after that, no one would enjoy the park, as it would have to close due to declining attendance and lost revenue. Disneyland is the Happiest Place on Earth, we are all their guests, and Walt created it to be a place where parents and children could have fun together. I understand all that (as I am sure you do, too). Disneyland is also a component of a vast business operation that must generate sufficient revenue to justify its very existence. It's not all that pleasant to think about when you see a child hugging Tigger. But it's the "hard facts" (to borrow a phrase from Walt's dedication speech) that underlie all that Disney Magic.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "What is being missed here is the concept of "discount."" Well in this case I'm talking about Disney's definition, which I assume is anything less than the stated one day price of admission. "It's a discount if it was previously one price, and is now offered for less. This is not happening with admission prices in any form." The price to get in Disneyland for the day is whatever is printed on the wall at the ticket counter. Anything less than that is considered a discount in my book. Take a look at this: <a href="http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2009-11-13/news/0911120258_1_disney-s-domestic-theme-disney-s-profit-theme-parks" target="_blank">http://articles.orlandosentine...me-parks</a> In the second half of the article: "Operating profit at Walt Disney Parks and Resorts fell 17percent during the quarter to $344million, on revenue that slid 4percent to $2.8billion. Park attendance improved, but ongoing discounts continued to eat into profit margins." So you see, the discounting, or whatever you want to call it, is driving attendance increases, but growing expenses are eating away at profits. "If prices were just that high, there would be a lot less folks inside, making it a very pleasant experience for those who could afford that higher price. And not long after that, no one would enjoy the park, as it would have to close due to declining attendance and lost revenue." Funny you say that, since the place ran for about 35 years that way without any problems.
Originally Posted By TMICHAEL >>>What is being missed here is the concept of "discount." It's a discount if it was previously one price, and is now offered for less. This is not happening with admission prices in any form.<<< Sorry to completely disagree with you but the AP program is an automatic discount in its own right. I call entering the park at what amounts to pennies on the dollar, multiple times a month a huge discount. For example: use your Deluxe AP a whopping 2 times a month and you've just spent $9.58 on your entrance to Disneyland. Now, that's quite a HUGE discount from spending over $2000 on the same amount of entries. For the die hard Disney geek going into the park three or four times a week, on the even cheaper SoCal AP's, and you have an even larger "discount". And all this "discounting" is killing the park and the experience for any unfortunate non-AP holder. >>>That Disney offers Annual Passes that make it possible to enter the park multiple times for a lower rate than a one day admission is more a reflection of the high rate of admission than of the so-called "discount."<<< Sorry, but again, nope. The non-discounted cost for entry is dictated by what the consumer will fork over. Even at todays prices, full price for a day at two parks is in line with many other types of entertainment. Hardly a "high rate of admission" IMO.
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>Funny you say that, since the place ran for about 35 years that way without any problems.<< Ahem. By the definition given here, "discounting" started in 1955. That's when the first Disneyland ticket book was issued. I do stand corrected, however, that there have been promotions that constitute discounts-- specifically the infamous "twofers" that kept the doors at DCA open for the first 3 or 4 years. So there's a strike against discounting, anyway...
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt Interesting Doug how you conveniently passed over the evidence posted in #92, which clearly shows that the financial analysis from the 4th quarter suggests that discounting is negatively effecting the bottom line.
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>Interesting Doug how you conveniently passed over the evidence posted in #92...<< Huh? Post #94: >>I do stand corrected, however, that there have been promotions that constitute discounts...<< Disagreeing with conclusions drawn does not constitute "passing over."
Originally Posted By justthefacts So why don't they change it? Why do they keep the ap's? Is it the "Can't un ring the bell" theory? We live in San Diego and have ap's. We go about 3 times a year. Enough to justify the passes but I doubt we are clogging Disneyland. I have b/w movies of my great grandmother at Disneyland so I have been going my whole life and would find a way to take my family with or without passes.
Originally Posted By DlandDug Your bad? Dis you see my "I stand corrected?" That has NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE!
