Originally Posted By NikkiLOVESMickey <<Nikki! That is a bloody shame.>> I plan on fixing that once school gets out here in May. I think a trip to DL would be the perfect way to reward myself for making it through my first year of teaching.
Originally Posted By dshyates Sorry nikki, thats right I remember your from the right coast. If I am correct you were rather young and still in love with all that is Walt Disney World when you started posting here. Now all of us old and jaded people have clouded your vision and rained on your Spectromagic. I am myself a WDW fan. I have only ventured to DLR a couple of time right around the time they opened DCA and have found very little reason to venture back. Since then we did go to WDW in Aug 2006. This Aug we went to Orlando and chose not to do Disney. A fatal combo of nothing new, lowering quality, and more expensive than ever. We went to USF, IOA, and Sea World instead.
Originally Posted By Mr X Expensive...I'll say! Can you believe that a CHILD'S ticket costs more in Orlando than an adult admission in Tokyo? Or that an entire week at Universal is only a touch more expensive than a day at DisneyWorld? Crazy...those prices are DEFINITELY over the limit now imho.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN I wish I could say the same for Business Class fares the the cheapos who like flying it.
Originally Posted By Skellington88 Whats sad is that the people at WDWmagic (a site that is looked at by Disney executives) and Mouseinfo which are the 2 sites where most of these "DOMs" are concentrated are already intentionally misstating what Al Lutz was trying to say in order to brainwash even more people to support the Walmarting of the Disney parks.
Originally Posted By Mr X Yup, business class fares are also horribly overpriced. Luckily, there are plenty of ways to freeload your way into a business class seat.
Originally Posted By Mr X And I certainly will, if we decide on WDW instead of Universal/Seaworld in December.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I used to be considered a Disney apologist around here, but after reading the Lutz article my eyes have really been opened. I took a look at the cheap crappy attractions that have been added to WDW recently and it just made me sick. Living Seas with Nemo and Friends Soarin' Expedition Everest Finding Nemo - The Musical Mickey's Philharmagic Mission Space How I long for the days when Disney would open new dark rides with Day-Glo paint on cheap plywood flats. Where oh where is the Disney that I used to know and love?
Originally Posted By Bob Paris Wondered how long it would be before somebody referenced Lutz's article. Personally, I thought it was FANTASTIC that somebody finally made a stand on the net and draw some kind of line for people who, while they love Disney are saddened and in some cases shocked by the falling standards. Too often, I see on Disney sites some people saying that unless you brainlessly praise EVERYTHING Disney puts out(from crappy DTDVD sequels to Dinosaur spinners in poorly thought out sections of theme parks)you wish death and ruin on the idiots in charge. What the apologists forget is that if WE get our way, THEY also get a much better Disney theme park. If THEY get their way, the company continues to create sub-par crap and eventually the bottom line starts heading south. For the life of me, I CANNOT understand why people would be cheerleading for the latest rubbish 3D film or off the shelf spinner, rather than a WRE or new immersive E ticket.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Who is WE? Who is THEY? I think the line drawn is incredibly moveable. If people disagree on a particular attraction (one enjoys it, the other doesn't) then one can shout "You're an APOLOGIST!" It's nothing new. People claiming to know "What Walt Would Have Done" have been saying people aren't "REAL" fans for some time now. It can never be a simple difference of opinion. No, it must be that someone IS ASKING FOR DISNEY TO BECOME SIX FLAGS!!!!!!!!!!!!! Tis is the hysterical tone I was mentioning earlier. It's all so geeky and over the top.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss I'm with toony. I don't see anyone praising or asking for low quality attractions. This is fan community, and some people just enjoy the parks (or whatever else) for what they are. They don't nitpick them; they just enjoy what they enjoy, and leave it at that. It doesn't make everyone who isn't a defender of Walt's Ghost an apologist.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN >>Where oh where is the Disney that I used to know and love?<< Mercifully NOT in MN.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip The problem with people like Lutz is tunnel vision. They can see what is wrong but they can't see what's right. Do I think the parks can be better maintained? Yes I do, and I've said so on these boards. Do I think the parks should increase their operating hours? Yes I do. Do I like the Disney Dining Plan and the resulting dumbing down of menus? No I do not, and I've said so on these boards. But anyone who would deny that Disney has added some fantastic attractions to WDW over the past few years is far blinder to reality than I will ever be. It's not the apologists alone that make the suits convinced that everything is OK. It is equally the fault of the Lutz's of the world who never see anything good. Lutz makes it very easy for the suits to dismiss valid criticism by saying "Why should we listen to what he says? He's never happy with anything." And frankly the suits in that case are correct. Lutz slams 3-D movies and I don't know where that comes from. WDW has had 3-D movies for a LONG time. The first time we visited WDW in 1991 we saw 'Magic Journeys' at the MK and 'Captain EO' at Epcot. Both shows were fantastic and very popular at the time. Philharmagic is fantastic and very popular today. Why do people feel that the only 'real' Disney attraction is a Dark Ride... an entertainment form that has been around 80 years? Do dark rides still have a place in a Disney park? Absolutely. Nemo at Epcot and Monsters Inc at DCA are two of my favorite recent attractions. But 3-D films have a place in the parks too.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan That's exactly right, RT. Plus, there's this idea that every theme park goer must be "corrected" if they express an opinion that they like a certain attraction deemed unworthy. What hubris.
Originally Posted By magnet I think that perhaps what Lutz is saying is the following: If you read a comment about a general decline in quality or about disatisfaction with a specific attraction, you should make sure that you challenge it with something more substantial than, "Well, I liked it -- so, it's good enough." Likewise, however, that means that there should be more behind one's objection than, "Well, I didn't like it -- so it's not good enough." But if someone can point out specific problems that need attention -- in the way that Spirit often does, well then you should rebut those objections with responses of the same quality. I don't think Lutz was as even-handed with his point as that, but there is kernel of truth not to be tossed aside in there.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<"Well, I liked it -- so, it's good enough.">> But that is usually not what people here say. It's more, "It could be better, but I liked it anyway," which is a completely different attitude.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<But if someone can point out specific problems that need attention -- in the way that Spirit often does, well then you should rebut those objections with responses of the same quality.>> I agree. That is why I mentioned Lutz in my post and not the Spirit. I don't always agree with the Spirit, but I think he is fair.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>But if someone can point out specific problems that need attention<< No argument there at all from me. That stuff is great -- showing photos of something that is falling apart or looking bad is good stuff. But too often, the commentary accompanying those photos, or complaints about the park in general, start getting into the realm of armchair psychoanalysis and mockery.
Originally Posted By jonvn What lutz said is just a pile of crap. You either agree with what he says or somehow there is something wrong with you and you are labeled. You are less of a person because you don't follow in lockstep with his opinions. It's disgusting. People who follow simply go along with this behavior are just as bad. It just shows once more what a petty and vindictive person he is. It's sick. He was taken pretty well to task on this on his site, and hopefully some people who don't know what this individual is about have had their eyes opened a bit. This is absolutely how he has always operated, calling for people to be fired, calling other people who DARED to disagree with him some sort of unpleasant epithet. Now we have his little stooges on various boards going around and repeating it, because they're too darned stupid to think for themselves. Heck, even Mr. Liver of all people recognize what was said as being total crap. I haven't read much from him lately, but it appears that his brain has perhaps finally started to kick in. Look kids, you don't label groups of people in a derogatory manner, period. You don't agree with them? Fine. That doesn't mean they are any less of a person than you. It doesn't mean they know less than you, and it doesn't mean that they have lower standards than you. They may just like different things, and they may just want something different than you do. Al is an offensive and hostile cause for destruction and ill-will all over the disney internet commmunity, plain and simple, and has always been one. He has his little cult of sycophants who echo everything he says and sends it out to all the various web sites. And who is he even talking about, anyway? Who on here says absolutely everything is perfect all the time? He just doesn't want other voices heard, that's all. And considering he barely understands the subject matter upon which he writes, it's a pretty bold behavior to engage in.