Originally Posted By jonvn They are jerks. Pure and simple. Of course they are saying things just to make me mad, that's what they do. They make very personal remarks, because that's their stock in trade. I understand what you are saying.
Originally Posted By danyoung >It's about some jerks who can't tolerate their leader being criticized.< It may be in some small part about fans of Al supporting him. But it's much more about jonvn spouting his hatred for Al and for anyone who has the temerity to agree with Al, over and over and over and over.
Originally Posted By jonvn No. I have hardly saying anything about him at this point. What's going on here are people who won't let him be criticized, so they keep trying to run anyone who does so down. It's not about him, it's about their behavior. Whether you agree with him or not, has nothing to do with it. It has to do with any of it. That you would suggest this shows a lack of reading comprehension on your part.
Originally Posted By jonvn No edit feature. Oh well. So, what is it, since the others have gone away, you think it's your turn at bat?
Originally Posted By u k fan Having just waded through 480+ posts I am honestly shocked that more of these posts haven't been admined. I would say that on all "sides" there have been posts that I have read as personal attacks. I know that things are allowed to go further in WE, but this isn't WE!!!
Originally Posted By danyoung >That you would suggest this shows a lack of reading comprehension on your part...So, what is it, since the others have gone away, you think it's your turn at bat?< My reading comprehension is doing just fine, thanks. Everyone is taking a turn at voicing their thoughts, and to your credit you're outlasting everyone with the same response no matter what the argument. I guess it's just my turn at bat, although I've run of passion for this discussion. It simply amazes me that the posters here can be so consistent in their positons against you and more or less supporting Al and Miceage, yet you can stay so strong in your opposition. At some point a reasonalbe person should begin to doubt a little of his own infallibility, and maybe admit that he might be getting some things wrong. Not you, jon. Keep them blinders on and your hatred strong! Makes for interesting discussions, if nothing else.
Originally Posted By jonvn "My reading comprehension is doing just fine, thanks" Doesn't seem to be. "outlasting everyone with the same response no matter what the argument." Yes, funny how useless it is. But persist anyway. "that the posters here can be so consistent in their positons against you and more or less supporting Al and Miceage" That's not actually what's going on, but that's fine. "At some point a reasonalbe person should begin to doubt a little of his own infallibility, and maybe admit that he might be getting some things wrong." I'm perfectly willing to change my viewpoint on things, provided I'm given something to work with other than "you're an unsavory character who is lying." It's not hate. It's simply not allowing these people to rip me for expressing my viewpoint. They want to get very personal about me, that's fine. That's what they do. Now you can either drop the subject, or we can continue on as long as you want. I don't honestly care. Until such time as I'm presented with the tiniest shred of reason to change my views, I see no reason to. Instead, I'm presented with all sorts of reasons that simply reinforce what I've said. I even told that witches person that if they simply stopped with the comments about me, I would be more than happy to just forget it, still am. But they just kept it up, because that's their programming. Same thing for anyone else. Drop the behavior, and stop attacking people for being critical of Al Lutz. When that happens, you'll see a difference.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip There does seem to be a feeling on these boards that while everyone is entitled to their opinions, some opinions are better than others. Anyone who tends to overlook the negative and concentrate on the positive is called a Disney Apologist or Defender of Mediocrity or whatever. That is garbage. People certainly have a right to express their view that WDW is going to hell in a hand-basket and something needs to be done to fix it. That is fine. But to stick derogatory labels on people who disagree with you is un-called for and unfair. Nothing intrinsically makes one opinion better than another. There is no one opinion you need to have to be a REAL Disney fan. I think this is what jonvn is talking about. He may express it a little stridently... he frequently does that. But that should not take away from the legitimacy of his point. People should not be labeled as Disney Apologists or Defenders of Mediocrity just because they happen to think the parks are pretty decent as they are. To stick derogatory labels on people just because they disagree with your point of view is despicable. That is what jonvn is objecting to. And he is right.
Originally Posted By danyoung I don't disagree with most of what you said, Trippy. But I do think jon's agenda extends out a little further. By the same token as what you said, if someone wants to defend Al and his comments, they should not be labled a minion and laughable and whatever other slang he's used to bash those who may or may not be bashing him. It all gets a little ugly.
Originally Posted By jonvn If someone wants to rip on me because I criticize Al, that is a minion. And they are. If someone wants to agree with him, that's anyone's right. "who may or may not be bashing him" This is a load of baloney. These people are saying brutally nasty things about me, and making very personal comments about myself, going so far as to drag people's names into this who happen to be friends with me. That is what is going on, this is what they do, and why I am adamant in not bending to such things. You agree with Al? Fine. But if that means you want to label and call people names for disagreeing with Al then that is a very disgusting behavior, and you should be called on it.
Originally Posted By jonvn And if you're so sensitive that you can't take being called for your behavior when you're so very willing to treat others like second class citizens based on their disagreeing with Al, then that's even a lower act.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<By the same token as what you said, if someone wants to defend Al and his comments, they should not be labled a minion and laughable and whatever other slang he's used to bash those who may or may not be bashing him.>> I agree. I thought of that about 2 minutes after pushing the submit button. I think jonvn's points are legitimate, but when he turns around and does much the same thing he accuses Lutz and his defenders of it doesn’t help his case.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Jonvn... you know I agree with much of what you are saying. I just don't think you should allow others to drag you down into the mud with them.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 Trippy, are you then a minion for jonvn ? just asking - since you are defending his point of view. ( and not sure I disagree with the basic content either )
Originally Posted By danyoung Let's all agree NO ONE is a MINION! NO ONE is a DoM! Can't we all just get along????????
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Trippy, are you then a minion for jonvn ?>> <<Main Entry: min·ion Pronunciation: \ˈmin-yən\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle French mignon darling Date: circa 1500 1 : a servile dependent, follower, or underling>> No. I would never accept being jonvn's servile dependent or underling. I'm more like a shill for jonvn. <<Main Entry: 1shill Pronunciation: \ˈshil\ Function: intransitive verb Etymology: 2shill Date: circa 1914 1 : to act as a shill 2 : to act as a spokesperson or promoter>>
Originally Posted By jonvn Yes, you're right. I get very annoyed at these people, and their behavior. One reason is because they've engaged in it with impunity for so long while I felt basically alone in dealing with them. It gets me very reactive. For a very long time it's been an open assault on my personal integrity and existence that it's very hard for me to keep totally calm. They really have engaged in very disgraceful behaviors, not just towards me, but to many people. Most of the unfortunate people targeted by them are cowed by it. The only way I see to not be is to let them know, quite firmly, that I won't be. I don't intend to let them steamroller over me like they have to so many others. I stay away from Al's site, because I don't want anything to do with him. I think he's been a very negative influence on things here for everyone. I don't need his buddies to show up where I do post how vile a human I am for disagreeing with their viewpoint. I do not feel a need to tolerate it one tiny bit, nor do I feel the defense of that behavior by others should be tolerated, either. So I don't. But it's very hard to continue to try to be nice or polite when face with an onslaught of hostile and insulting posts from people who really have nothing to contribute other than what a scumball I am, simply because I don't like what Al Lutz has to say.
Originally Posted By jonvn " I would never accept being jonvn's servile dependent or underling" Does this mean I have to return the black hood I bought for you?
