Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<Look kids, you don't label groups of people in a derogatory manner, period.>> Unless they have tattoos. Then all bets are off.
Originally Posted By jonvn I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but what was said on that site is pretty indefensible, invalid, and does nothing but create emnity between people who should just want to like the same thing. There is no US and THEM. It's all US. There is an entire spectrum of people with all sorts of ideas, beliefs, backgrounds, tastes, and feelings and they are all more or less valid than everyone else's. It is taste and opinion. And no one person's opinion is CORRECT. It's opinion. People do not defend mediocrity. They defend what they like, and what they enjoy. And if someone finds WDW or wherever to be somthing they enjoy, that does not make them stupid or bad, it makes them someone who likes the place. There is nothing wrong with wanting to just be entertained by a theme park. Look at all the animosity these comments have created here, on Al's site and on other sites as well. That's a very bad thing that has happened. There is no reason for it, and people who engage in it should re-examine what they are doing, including me. This sort of thing is just so very wrong, and has been going on for years, and has created a lot of really negative rifts in the Disney online community. And for what? Over what? It really is a sad commentary that people hate so much over NOTHING.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip After 3-1/2 years at this site, post #40 is without a doubt the most dead-on-target post I've read here EVER! BRAVO!!
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Whats sad is that the people at WDWmagic (a site that is looked at by Disney executives) and Mouseinfo which are the 2 sites where most of these "DOMs" are concentrated are already intentionally misstating what Al Lutz was trying to say in order to brainwash even more people to support the Walmarting of the Disney parks. >> Disney execs read all sorts of things online. This site is a fave of a few spirits in the exec suites on both coasts ... and overseas. And Micechat gets lots of attention too.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I used to be considered a Disney apologist around here, but after reading the Lutz article my eyes have really been opened. I took a look at the cheap crappy attractions that have been added to WDW recently and it just made me sick.>> Take a spoonful of sugar (and mix it was a margarita or three and you'll be fine!) <<Living Seas with Nemo and Friends>> Nice little C-Ticket that replaced another, which was part of a larger storybased pavilion. Oh, and the rest of the place, other than a new coat of paint, is falling apart. In some places walls are rotting even around tanks. <<Soarin'>> Great addition, no doubt. But also a direct lift from DCA (stealing its one great signature attraction instead of having a new, more appropirate film). <<Expedition Everest>> One of WDW's best additions in years. Still, only gets a B+/A- because it has some very rough edges that could have been taken away with a small amount of money. <<Finding Nemo - The Musical>> Easily the best show at WDW. But one that is also overrated because the others suck so much. <<Mickey's Philharmagic>> Enjoyable 3D film that has some subpar animation in parts and was stolen from HKDL (where it was supposed to be its signature unique attraction). <<Mission Space>> A waste of between $150-200 million depending on who you talk to. I think its a way kewl ride, but I expect more from WDI ... any of the three prior space pavilion ideas would have been superior to a thrill ride that 2/3'ds of guests can't/won't ride (at least in its original form.) <<How I long for the days when Disney would open new dark rides with Day-Glo paint on cheap plywood flats. Where oh where is the Disney that I used to know and love?>> MK -- Fantasyland.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I agree. That is why I mentioned Lutz in my post and not the Spirit. I don't always agree with the Spirit, but I think he is fair.>> He tries.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 So many issues are addressed in the initial post. <<I know Al Lutz is a polarizing figure in the Disney Community. Most people either love him or hate him, give him all the credit when positive change comes to Anaheim or refuse to give him one bit>> There seems to be an internet camp that needs to place fellow posters in false-dilema categories: "Love Al/Hate Al" "Defend Mediocrity/Have Standards" "True Believer/Non-Believer" "With Us/Against Us" I think the vast majority of us posters are a bit more sophisticated than this easy reduction would have us be. I, for one, very much appreciate Al's insights, his commitment to standards, and the news he brings. But I cringe when I read his pre-adolescent-like bashing of individuals, his pieces that are little more than self-glorifying hype, and his love-to-be-a-martyr diatribes about how disagreeing with him makes one an apologist. I feel the same way about Spirit of 74. They both have so much to offer. It's a shame that personal style and politics affect their potential influence. <<It's well known the Disney company keeps an close eye online, and more than a few times the immediate and unsparingly honest feedback for their latest offerings has resulted in refinements, reworkings and even the rare shutdown of a show or ride. But the gushing DoM fan postings supporting a product that is of a lower quality than what Disney should offer get monitored too - and more than a few times they have been used to try to convince the higher-ups that customers don't care or notice.>> We keep hearing that Disney seriously attends to Disney-themed fansites. And we hear that from -- surprise! -- the proprietors or major posters of Disney websites. Yet we never see direct evidence that anyone at Disney ever monitors these things at all. I guess we're just supposed to take that on faith. >><<How can those who care be helped? All they ask is that if you see a DoM posting making excuses for a botched product or service, that you take a few moments to respond to it. Take a minute to post how important the higher standards Disney is usually known for justify their premium pricing, and that the best quality product is important to you. It doesn't need in any way to be a putdown, it just needs to be honest about what can be done better.>> Yep. That says it all. That's why you often see me get into Spirited debates with folks who justify crap from dirty parks to homogenized merchandise to keeping old attractions unaltered to just plain awful management.<< Assuming that Disney management DOES read these boards... Another constructive thing that posters can do it to point out to the Al Lutzes and Spirits of 74 that their posts are so hysterically and lopsidedly anti-Disney-management that they (Al and Spirit) are losing whatever credibility that they might otherwise have as change agents. Unfortunately, disagreeing with either of them typically results in the dissenter being bullied and being labeled as a DoM.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Look kids, you don't label groups of people in a derogatory manner, period. You don't agree with them? Fine. That doesn't mean they are any less of a person than you. It doesn't mean they know less than you, and it doesn't mean that they have lower standards than you.>> Sometimes, Jon, it does. I would venture to say today's Disney theme park guest expects far less quality than a typical guest just a decade ago. And getting feedback saying everything is dandy, be it from the fans on sites like these, surveys at the park or ratings from everyone from Consumer Reports to AAA, is what allows Disney to coast. And it allows the company to do many of the things you (and I) hate. From cartooning the parks to dumbing down the merchandise and entertainment. I don't think people should be vilified for their opinions ... but I also don't think that's what Al was advocating. And you also know, I am not a huge fan of the man at all. I just believe he really nailed this point. I guarantee you that things like giants hats dropped down in front of a park's weenie (why do I feel like giggling like a schoolgirl when I use that term?) would have been met with far more negativity 15 years ago. Putting cartoon character filled attractions in lands other than Fantasyland didn't/wouldn't fly than either. The MK T-land has THREE as soon as you cross the bridge ... its character-land and the signature attraction's biggest effect is having the title character (one I actually love) belch on people. People that find these attractions just fine do contribute to them being built. It's a vicious cricle. <<They may just like different things, and they may just want something different than you do. Al is an offensive and hostile cause for destruction and ill-will all over the disney internet commmunity, plain and simple, and has always been one. He has his little cult of sycophants who echo everything he says and sends it out to all the various web sites. >> Jon, your personal issues with Al -- however valid, do nothing to strengthen your case. The debate is about what the man said not what kind of human being he is. <<And who is he even talking about, anyway? Who on here says absolutely everything is perfect all the time? He just doesn't want other voices heard, that's all. And considering he barely understands the subject matter upon which he writes, it's a pretty bold behavior to engage in. >> There are many people who feel Disney can do now wrong. Many. Heck, I have cut back posting on his site because most of the WDW crowd there thinks the place is damn close to perfect right now. I do agree in part about him not wanting other voices heard. The man definitely has an ego as big as a mountain and craves attention. The fact he and his minions can't agree to something as simple as the fact DCA saved DL (for those not involved on the DCA Board Jon and I have been amongst a group recently engaged in such a discussion) shows he makes up his mind on how or what something is and is never able to say 'I was wrong' or 'I hate DCA, but if it wasn't for that heroin monkey DL might be packing up for Irvive by now and Disney wouldn't be on the verge of spending/investing billionS in Anaheim.' But that said, sometimes he hits the nail on the head. And as far as WDW goes, he did it here. His information on DCA and DL in his recent update is also quite accurate, which isn't always the case. (Why do I sense a 3,000-post thread on Al Lutz: Hero or Devl? coming up?)
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 Oops. above second-to-last paragraph should read "...thing that posters can do IS to point out..."
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Look at all the animosity these comments have created here, on Al's site and on other sites as well. That's a very bad thing that has happened. There is no reason for it, and people who engage in it should re-examine what they are doing, including me. This sort of thing is just so very wrong, and has been going on for years, and has created a lot of really negative rifts in the Disney online community. And for what? Over what? It really is a sad commentary that people hate so much over NOTHING. >> I don't see any hating here. I see people debating and talking. And that's a good thing. Could your 'Al issues' be clouding your judgment a tad here?
Originally Posted By RoadTrip << But I cringe when I read his pre-adolescent-like bashing of individuals, his pieces that are little more than self-glorifying hype, and his love-to-be-a-martyr diatribes about how disagreeing with him makes one an apologist. I feel the same way about Spirit of 74.>> I have to disagree here just a bit. And it is not only because I hope the Spirit gets me a VP job somewhere in the entertainment industry sometime soon. ;-) But seriously, I see a considerable difference between Lutz and the Spirit. Sure the Spirit gets rather full of himself at times. Oh well. I'm a self-deprecating short guy from Minnesota with a frozen brain and I get full of myself on occasion too! The difference I see with the Spirit is that I have seen many posts by him praising positive changes he has seen in Disney parks. I don't think I've ever seen that from Lutz (although I must admit, since I'm not a fan I don't read him very often). I also think the Spirit give a more rational evaluation of things than Lutz does. The Spirit may dump on some particular thing at WDW, but he explains WHY he dumps on it and what could be done to improve it. That is OK in my book. Sure, at times he can be a little condescending. He certainly is at times towards me. But I know it is primarily in jest. Heck, the big old bear even said he loves me. What more could anyone want? ;-)
Originally Posted By Mickeymouseclub Hey Spirit It takes a brave soul to put words into print. You and Al and others deserve recognition for your passion. Just as Doobie and Rebekkah for their labor of love.
Originally Posted By Mickeymouseclub Could you tell me whatever happened to the Lion King performance theatre that MPH replaced? Why was it cancelled never to be seen again. I thought it was excellent and wish it would resurface at DL/DCA possibly.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I feel the same way about Spirit of 74. They both have so much to offer. It's a shame that personal style and politics affect their potential influence.>> I'd love to know why you insist on making me the subject matter of everytime you post in a thread with me? This isn't about my 'style' (whatever that is) or my 'politics' (no, I've never liked George Bush, thanks for asking!) <<We keep hearing that Disney seriously attends to Disney-themed fansites. And we hear that from -- surprise! -- the proprietors or major posters of Disney websites. Yet we never see direct evidence that anyone at Disney ever monitors these things at all. I guess we're just supposed to take that on faith.>> I don't own, operate or contribute (other than as a poster) to any website. I have no agenda other than to share what information I know with others who love Disney and its parks. But I do know Disney monitors these sites and pays special attention to certain posters. I have been told that by execs themselves. I know one WDW exec is a particular fan of this site. (I'm reasonably confident there are more than one too!) At some point, you either believe what someone is telling you based upon their track record or you don't. I know a lot of people enjoy reading what I have to say because my information is usually quite accurate. From execs getting axed to the cruise line doubling in size to DVC expanding to Hawaii ... if I was wrong all the time or most of it, I doubt that people would trust me as a good source of information. >><<How can those who care be helped? All they ask is that if you see a DoM posting making excuses for a botched product or service, that you take a few moments to respond to it. Take a minute to post how important the higher standards Disney is usually known for justify their premium pricing, and that the best quality product is important to you. It doesn't need in any way to be a putdown, it just needs to be honest about what can be done better.>> Yep. That says it all. That's why you often see me get into Spirited debates with folks who justify crap from dirty parks to homogenized merchandise to keeping old attractions unaltered to just plain awful management.<< <<Assuming that Disney management DOES read these boards...>> See, I-57, it doesn't matter one bit whether you or anyone else believes that many execs and managers and Imagineers and even some reporters troll here. It doesn't matter because it doesn't change the facts at all. Either they do, which I know is true. Or they don't, which isn't true. But what anyone believes doesn't alter them one bit! <<Another constructive thing that posters can do it to point out to the Al Lutzes and Spirits of 74 that their posts are so hysterically and lopsidedly anti-Disney-management that they (Al and Spirit) are losing whatever credibility that they might otherwise have as change agents.>> I'm glad you find my posts hysterical. If I can't make you think, at least I can leave you with a smile. As to my credibility, who are you to be the arbiter of how credible I am? Isn't that an individual decision for everyone? I don't see anyone else consistently join a thread I am involved in who adds nothing to the discussion but takes shots at me. Again, what did I ever say or do to you? <<Unfortunately, disagreeing with either of them typically results in the dissenter being bullied and being labeled as a DoM. >> I hate bullying and would never do that. I have a strong voice and am spirited, I guess some people have a hard time debating with me. Again, why are we talking about me instead of WDW?
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I have to disagree here just a bit. And it is not only because I hope the Spirit gets me a VP job somewhere in the entertainment industry sometime soon. ;-)>> Labuda is first in line for a job. Stand behind her and we'll see what develops. <<But seriously, I see a considerable difference between Lutz and the Spirit.>> I am much better looking. I am younger. I don't hate DCA. I can admit I am wrong. And despite strong animosity toward certain Disney execs (and I guarantee you it's not likely the ones you think), I don't really think abot them when I am not posting. <<Sure the Spirit gets rather full of himself at times. Oh well. I'm a self-deprecating short guy from Minnesota with a frozen brain and I get full of myself on occasion too!>> Trippy, I really don't have much of an ego ... I wish I did. My life would be so much easier. <<The difference I see with the Spirit is that I have seen many posts by him praising positive changes he has seen in Disney parks. I don't think I've ever seen that from Lutz (although I must admit, since I'm not a fan I don't read him very often). >> I will always praise Disney where it deserves it (like the new Mansion redo at the MK or the food at the Coral Reef) and rip it where it deserves it (the horrific new Canadian movie at EPCOT ... or more importanly ignoring the park's 25th anniversary for political reasons). And to be fair to Al, he isn't strictly negative at all. He was at one time, but DL had an awful lot wrong in those days too. As things have improved, Al's writing and rhetoric have gotten much more positive. Hell, he's largely more positive than negative now. <<I also think the Spirit give a more rational evaluation of things than Lutz does. The Spirit may dump on some particular thing at WDW, but he explains WHY he dumps on it and what could be done to improve it. That is OK in my book. Sure, at times he can be a little condescending. He certainly is at times towards me. But I know it is primarily in jest. Heck, the big old bear even said he loves me. What more could anyone want? ;-)>> I dunno ... how about universal healthcare? Or a way kewl plasma screen for my family room.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Could you tell me whatever happened to the Lion King performance theatre that MPH replaced? Why was it cancelled never to be seen again.>> Are you referring to the old Mickey Mouse Review? If so, it was moved to TDL in 1980 and continues to play there. I look forward to seeing it next year on my trip.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN >>Heck, the big old bear even said he loves me.<< I must have been drunk because I can't remember saying that at all.
