Originally Posted By fkurucz >>Boy howdy. And it's not just Disney. Time shares in general can be iffy, to put it mildly.<< My in-laws once owned a summer timeshare in Park City. Eventually they became tired of it tried to sell it. There were no takers. They eventually surrendered it back to the timeshare company.
Originally Posted By Yookeroo "When you consider how the entire property was once planned to have efficient peoplemovers and monorails linking parks, hotels, residences and businesses across the property" I doubt monorails and peoplemovers would be more efficient than buses.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt I disagree. The original plan, which would have had hotels, parks, and other destinations linked closely together in an urban setting and not scattered all over the property in the mish-mash fashion that you see today. It's kind of remarkable really that Disney went from being an organization that once once revered and respected for its urban design to kind of a one trick pony. They do themed entertainment destinations really well and that's about it.
Originally Posted By danyoung >The WDW transportation system is a complete and utter disaster... And yes, overall the place looks terrible... And the Carousel of Progress looks like a broken down wax works window display at this point...< Wow - go in for hyperbole much?
Originally Posted By karlg Per Dr. Hans >It's kind of remarkable really that Disney went from being an organization that once once revered and respected for its urban design to kind of a one trick pony. < There is much I admire about Walt Disney and his vision, but not much of what Disney built and did TV shows about in terms of transportation worked out. Monorails and people movers are better as theme park attractions than as practical transportation systems. They are artist's ideas as to what would make good transportation systems.
Originally Posted By Yookeroo "Monorails and people movers are better as theme park attractions than as practical transportation systems. They are artist's ideas as to what would make good transportation systems." That's what I'm thinking.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt “Monorails and people movers are better as theme park attractions than as practical transportation systems." Monorails yes, but there is an abundance of real world examples where peoplemovers and PTR systems are moving large masses of people in areas with high pedestrian traffic. The point isn't that Disney should be using these more; it's that the ambitious concepts, clever planning, and forward thinking transportation ideas that were the foundation of WDW's development as a planned community in the late 60s into the resort's first decade have been tossed aside in the rush to build hotels and theme parks on any parcel of developable land on the property.
Originally Posted By karlg Dr. Hans, The reality is that the original ideas for WDW/Epcot didn't work. The monorail had insufficient capacity to move people to the Magic Kingdom and they immediately had to use trams to get people to the park until the ferry boats could be completed. I would definitely agree that WDW should have a better transportation system than buses. I would like to see them move toward a computer controlled electronic rail system. They could perhaps use smaller "light rail" (ala Orlando Airport's system) to get people to the main line system connecting the parks and the major theme parks and resorts. I sometimes wonder if it is WDW's management goal to make people spend about 1 to 2 hours a day getting to and from the parks/resorts so that they have to stay an extra day to do everything they want. But back to my original point, I don't think Disney ever correctly anticipate future transportation needs. Monorails, for example, are a very expensive and ineffective way to move a lot of people. But I would agree that it would be nice to see them explore better ways to move people.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>The reality is that the original ideas for WDW/Epcot didn't work. The monorail had insufficient capacity to move people to the Magic Kingdom and they immediately had to use trams to get people to the park until the ferry boats could be completed.<< Funny how large cities around the globe can move millions of people each day in subways. It isn't that monorails and people movers don't work at WDW, it's that trams and buses are much cheaper as they are off the shelf products. And they can operate on the same roads as the cars, meaning no special and expensive tracks have to be built. It's cost, noting more.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip A downfall of monorails is there is (apparently) no good way to switch the beam so everything has to run on a closed loop. This means that instead of being able to board a monorail at the MK that takes you directly to Epcot, you have to get off at the TTC and wait for a second monorail. With all the destinations at WDW that presently have to be served, constructing a monorail to serve them all would be an absolute nightmare and would end up something like the cumbersome system of having to switch buses at Downtown Disney to get from one hotel to another... except worse, because as we've seen with the MK/Epcot monorail you can't even get from one park to another on the same train.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Funny how large cities around the globe can move millions of people each day in subways.>> Subways can be switched from one track to another. A monorail can't.
Originally Posted By Yookeroo "Funny how large cities around the globe can move millions of people each day in subways." WDW isn't moving millions of people every day.
Originally Posted By TP2000 "Subways can be switched from one track to another. A monorail can't." Why not? If the track is there, and there's a trackswitch connecting it, why can't a monorail switch from one track to another just like a subway could under the same circumstances? The only difference is that one track system is above ground, and one track system is below ground. But the switching concept is still the same.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip It's a little more difficult to move a concrete beam than it is to move a piece of track. Yes, it can be done... that is how they get the monorails off the main beam for maintenance. But it is not something that can be done routinely.
Originally Posted By karlg Monorails are a "continuous bridge" and if you know anything about road construction, bridges are very expensive. The bridge/beamway has to support the whole weight of the vehicle. Monorails have to be built light and their carry capacity limited to keep the beamway from becoming even more expensive. The switching of monorails is also more expensive and takes more space than regular trains but that is a secondary expense issue. Subways are expensive due to the tunnels but there would be little/no need for tunnels and only a few bridges required at WDW. Subways only make sense in dense urban areas due to the extreme expense of making tunnels. Light rail (smaller few car trains) (Monorails are also considered light rail) never work except as short connectors to "real" transportation (heavy rail). Politicians put in light rail as a "feel good" measure but they can't move enough people to really act as serious transportation. Monorails generally get use for their entertainment value because they don't work for moving large numbers of people efficiently. The way WDW sprawled out with the resort hotels and theme parks, there may not be an efficient way to connect them. The problem is that there is not enough traffic density to make heavy rail work (not enough people per hour per resort going to the same theme park). Maybe "smart" driver-less light rail might work better in the long run rather than buses.
Originally Posted By karlg Actually, the monorail switching is done routinely in Tokyo Haneda (not Disneyland) Monorail. I have personally ridden on the Haneda line, which is the largest monorail line in the world, and the track is routinely being switched. It also has a rail yard that makes WDW look like a toy system. Like most monorails that actually got built, the Haneda line was more about politics and ego than practical transportation. The Haneda line was built for the 1964 Tokyo Olympics between the Airport (Haneda is now used for shorter haul flights since Narita was built) and downtown Tokyo. Also, the Las Vegas line routinely switches (this can best be viewed at the end of the line near the old Sahara Hotel). The Las Vegas line is closely related to the WDW monorail. The Haneda line is a Hitachi design (several generations old) which licensed the design from Alweg back in the 1960's. There are multiple Hitachi designs around Japan including the Tokyo Disneyland one. I believe they share many common parts with the Hitachi subway/elevated trains which helps keep the long term expenses and parts more practical.
Originally Posted By Manfried A subway is essentially a train. So WDW could have a ground level train/subway system.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 "Maybe "smart" driver-less light rail might work better in the long run rather than buses." That makes the most sense to me. It works very well here in New York from Jamaica station to JFK. Driverless trains every few minutes taking many thousands of people a day. It is an expense, however, and I don't see it happening at WDW as long as people put up with the buses.
Originally Posted By mickeymorris1234 Thats just it, people do put up with the busses and the system works, it just isn't fast. By the sounds of it, WDW has more important fish to fry and money better spent than an overhaul of the transportation system.
