Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Also, the Las Vegas line routinely switches (this can best be viewed at the end of the line near the old Sahara Hotel). The Las Vegas line is closely related to the WDW monorail.>> I never realized that I always assumed it just reversed direction like at the southern end.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***"When you consider how the entire property was once planned to have efficient peoplemovers and monorails linking parks, hotels, residences and businesses across the property" I doubt monorails and peoplemovers would be more efficient than buses*** Clearly you've never been to Japan. But even if they WEREN'T more efficient (they are), they're far more interesting, entertaining, whimsical, and altogether *Disney*...or would you honestly rather ride around on buses all day?
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Yes, monorails are cool. Well, they could be, though the ones at WDW are largely dirty and stinky. But if you were to convert to monorail throughout the resort, could the beams even HOLD the number of monorails needed to replace all the buses presently in use? Personally, I find that hard to imagine with the two-checkpoint spacing required between monorails.
Originally Posted By Mr X What's two-checkpoint spacing? Anyway, I don't think monorails would be the catch-all, but more a nice addition to an interesting and entertaining transportation mix - kinda like how WDW used to be before the big expansion ruined everything.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<What's two-checkpoint spacing?>> The WDW monorail system has periodic checkpoints (I'm not sure how far apart they are). At any rate, for the monorail to proceed the next two checkpoints have to be clear of any other traffic or the emergency brakes are applied. The monorail cannot move again until the two checkpoints are clear.
Originally Posted By Mr X Ah, I figured it was something like that. "Waiting for traffic clearance", right? I'd say a more MODERN monorail system might fix that right up.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "The way WDW sprawled out with the resort hotels and theme parks, there may not be an efficient way to connect them." This is exactly the problem. The original plan for WDW didn't call for destinations to be scattered about in such a hodge-podge way.
Originally Posted By leemac The biggest mass transit problem at WDW has been caused by the location of the resorts. It just isn't possible to connect every resort with every conceivable destination. The only hope would be to connect the resorts to a new central TTC with onward spurs to the parks but it just isn't practical. If mass transit only connected the parks then it solves part of the problem. WDW is a junkie and buses are its drug of choice. It will be impossible to wean WDW off of its reliance on buses. It would be possible to reduce the reliance but the development of the resort has made it impossible to move to mass transit.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Clearly you've never been to Japan.>> Except for the Tokyo monorail where else is there either a monorail or Peoplemover example? The Tokyo monorail exists only because it was the only solution for that route (and it was to show off the tech for the '64 Olympics). <<But even if they WEREN'T more efficient (they are), they're far more interesting, entertaining, whimsical, and altogether *Disney*...or would you honestly rather ride around on buses all day?>> Buses are definitely the LCD transport option. However I think most guests just want an efficient means of pont-to-point transport - the smallest number of changes with the most frequent service. Buses are the only option. The Tokyo Resort Line is a very different proposition as it is a closed loop and the easiest way to get around the resort (particularly between the two parks). OLC is also lucky that it "has" to charge for tickets - it is a very profitable division for OLC. I'm sure WDW would love to bring in a new means of transportation but guests won't pay for the privilege after decades of free on-site transportation so dumping huge amounts of capex into transforming the transportation network isn't feasible.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Light rail (smaller few car trains) (Monorails are also considered light rail) never work except as short connectors to "real" transportation (heavy rail).>> I don't agree with that point. There are a lot of examples (especially in Europe) where light rail or trams work very effectively and moving people around cities. I use the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail that NJ Transit operate all the time and it is cheap and clean and operates on a regular schedule. Granted a lot of people use it to connect to the PATH service but it is still an excellent service. The real problem for WDW is finding a solution that deals with some very peaky demand - e.g. at park closing etc. I don't think there is any cost-effective option unfortunately except for buses.
Originally Posted By leemac <<I have personally ridden on the Haneda line, which is the largest monorail line in the world>> I think the Osaka line is much longer. Chongqing is also a very long monorail line (line 2 I think).
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Maybe WDW could "test the waters" by charging $1 a ride for the monorail (exempting those staying in the monorail resorts from the charge) while leaving the other transit options free. If enough people were willing to pay to ride the monorail it might make sense for them to expand the system. They certainly aren't shy about charging for parking (and constantly increasing the charge).
Originally Posted By karlg leemac, Opps on the Haneda. I thought it was the longest and should have checked. It does make the WDW monorail look like a toy system. Light rail has at best a narrow range where it is can be effective, but most cities put it in as "feel good" when they are not really going to address the mass transit problem. It can work to a degree some situations when it connects a few points that have regular but relatively a most moderate capacity needs. It's failing as a "real" mass transit system is a lack of capacity to move a lot of people. You make a good point about the buses supporting high capacity at surges. Buses work because they can use the existing roads. With rail they would have to add the rail infrastructure. But I would still think that more conventional rail would beat monorails on "per passenger mile" costs. I would agree that probably the only think that would possibly work effectively for WDW would be to have a hub and spoke layout with people getting anywhere in two trips (one to and one from the hub). WDW mimics the post World War II cities with a lack of centralization and thus it is a mess (impractical) to connect by rail.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt ^^ Which is the exact opposite of what it wasn't supposed to do.
Originally Posted By leemac <<It does make the WDW monorail look like a toy system.>> Again I'm not sure you can compare a public transit system run for profit against a free private network. It doesn't pay for WDW to invest in transport because it is simply a sunk cost - so the cheapest and easiest system is deployed which is a direct P2P bus network. I have no doubt that if it wasn't iconic and difficult to demolish that WDW Co. would have shuttered the monorail years ago. I'd love to see a wholesale change to the transportation at WDW with a bold new (pay) system but they will never do it. There is no ROI and the competition will continue to persist with car and bus transport.
Originally Posted By leemac <<I would agree that probably the only think that would possibly work effectively for WDW would be to have a hub and spoke layout with people getting anywhere in two trips (one to and one from the hub).>> It will just push guests into cars. Folks just won't tolerate a bus to a TTC and then onward to a park and vice versa. Direct P2P buses are the only acceptable means for them. I think a good halfway house would be to run a form of light rail between Epcot, D-MGM and DAK. That will at least facilitate to inter-park transport. The problem will always be running between the resorts and the parks.
Originally Posted By TP2000 WDW is suffering the same fate as many mid-sized cities. They are enamored of any type of mass transit with tracks (trains), and shun anything without tracks (buses). Buses can carry the same or greater amount of people the same distances at much cheaper expense, and have the ability to change routes instantly or flex with seasons and time of day. Trains are more expensive and are stuck going where the tracks were laid. But trains are glamorous and chic, while buses are downscale and embarrassing. A streetcar or light rail line is seen as the height of glamour and coveted by every small or mid sized city in America, even though it would be cheaper and easier for them to just continue running buses. And a monorail? Well, that's the gold plated Rolls Royce of the mass transit world. Suitable only for expensive theme parks, resorts, or lavish World's Fairs.
Originally Posted By karlg Basically everyone runs the numbers and comes to the same conclusion. Some politicians and activists don't like the answer of buses so they put in light rail that doesn't really solve anything but is "doing something." One could even argue that it is Disney's best interest to not make getting from place to place too efficient as the transportation time causes people to stay an extra day. With a few exceptions of high density with well defined/constrained routes (such as Manhattan, London, Tokyo) even heavy rail does not work. WDW is not moving the millions of people like N.Y city. It just has the big surges mostly at closing. It is hard to justify a rail system capable of moving 20X the number of people just to be able to handle the surge at the end of the day. BTW, Rail works best for hauling freight that does not object to waiting on a siding for a day or two to link up with a long train and doesn't care if it take a week to get to the destination. All the talk of High Speed Rail is so much political boondoggle. Walt and his artists back in the 50's and 60's thought it was the way to go but they were wrong.
Originally Posted By leemac <<One could even argue that it is Disney's best interest to not make getting from place to place too efficient as the transportation time causes people to stay an extra day. >> Surveys suggest that transportation delays at WDW are the biggest complaint from guests - more so than long wait times for attractions. It definitely isn't in WDW's best interests to keep people waiting at low capacity bus stops. <<But trains are glamorous and chic, while buses are downscale and embarrassing. A streetcar or light rail line is seen as the height of glamour and coveted by every small or mid sized city in America, even though it would be cheaper and easier for them to just continue running buses. >> And that's the rub - instead of finding the lowest cost and most efficient transport it gets all political. Efficiency in terms of energy use and numbers carried are just as important. WDW should focus on developing a true "on-demand" system for bus deployment so that all active buses are used as efficiently as possible and they should be deploying an entire fleet of energy efficient vehicles too - whether that be LPG, electric or some sort of bio-fuel. Buses should be a lot more flexible in terms of shifting from route to route to meet immediate demand. I'd wager that the current system is so inefficient that you could effectively run a fleet of MPVs to carry guests from P2P. Too many buses either run pack to capacity or completely empty.
