Originally Posted By a1stav ^^^^ Have a great time. There are some rough edges around at WDW but overall it is a blast!
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< Pollyanna, what HAPPENED to you!? >>> I hereby nominate this for LP quip of the month.
Originally Posted By kennect OT but for the Witche's....I am always available but right now I am working on some pretty magical things myself...You know life would be pretty boring if it weren't for people like us!
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 <<So, for those of you who insist on shooting the messenger[...] you shouldn't expect the rest of us to accept mediocre service or poor maintenance on attractions just because you're willing to.>> In other words, true Disney fans hold Al Lutz above criticism. Conversely, if one criticizes Al Lutz, that person has no real concern for the Disney experience. I'm sorry, Witches, but to me that perspective seems, uh... Well, I don't agree with it. Perhaps you and I should just concede that we've reached an impasse on this issue. I'm happy to hear people (and witches) report that Al is a nice guy in person. I'm happy for your friendship with him. I'm happy for the value you've found in the MiceAge column and community.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I love Disneyland. I think that Disneyland Park is the best single Disney Park in the United States, and I think that California Adventure provides a nice variety of experiences taken from the various WDW parks. I think that across the board when Disneyland Park and the Magic Kingdom have slightly different versions of the same attraction, EVERY TIME the Disneyland version was better (A possible exception to this would be Jungle Cruise, but I would have to try it more times to make a good judgment). But if for some reason I was going to be restricted to one U.S. Disney resort for the rest of my life, I would without a doubt choose Walt Disney World over Disneyland. WDW just offers a complete experience that Disneyland will never be able to compete with. We've had two five day vacations at DL. Each time we really enjoyed the vacations, but by the time our five days were done we were ready to leave. We have been on numerous 9-10 day vacations at WDW and each time have felt that we were leaving without doing some of the things we wanted to do. Sorry, but at times quantity DOES beat quality. Especially when the quality difference is not that great and does not significantly impact your enjoyment in any way. (Well, it maybe does for some folks but I'm darned glad I'm not one of them.)
Originally Posted By avromark The only thing is, idealogies like deferred maintenance cycles. DLR got the focus, but sooner or later they will focus on WDW since WDW does attract a lot of tourists who stay on property. Sometimes a squeaky wheel does help get the grease. (Don't you love my cliches?) But like anything in bog doses, it may get sickening. I would like to see more diversity in rides to give people a reason to visit both parks, I wish River Expedition etc was built. I also wish WDW had the density of attractions DL has. Yes DL is the original, but with the size of MK, it would have more rides It seems that JH and AL seem to make the most contraversy. That said we'll never have complete parity with everyone. You can please some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time. (Cliches!) - Mark And yes I57, I will be cutting back on LP to let other personalities emerge again.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 <<And yes I57, I will be cutting back on LP to let other personalities emerge again.>> avro, you knucklehead, it's not like you've been crowding me out! Hurry up and finish your internship so we can meet at The Henry Ford!
Originally Posted By TDLFAN >>Sorry, but at times quantity DOES beat quality.<< I would not have a problem with that statement if WDW was charging LESS money for the 1,2,3, or 4 day passports because the price does not match the quality. But honestly... assessments like that one is what gives WDW's management license to continue to slack off and offer less value at higher prices... Furthermore.. with that statement, Roadtrip killed the little credibility I was willing to give to him, as a true fan would not EVER choose quantity over quality in regards to Disney. The best gifts come in small packages.
Originally Posted By danyoung >...as a true fan would not EVER choose quantity over quality in regards to Disney.< For me I'd have to say that while quality should be the most important, quantity is indeed a factor when planning a vacation. I'm pretty sure that's what Trippy meant. Would you rather travel to Westcoast, California to see one really incredible attraction, or Eastcoast, Florida for many pretty good ones? It's a matter of where I'll get the most pop for my vacation dollar. And while I'm lucky enough to be able to visit both coasts at least once or twice a year, if I had to pick I'd probably lean in the WDW direction. And the quantity of what there is to do there has a lot to do with that decision.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<>>Sorry, but at times quantity DOES beat quality.<< I would not have a problem with that statement if WDW was charging LESS money for the 1,2,3, or 4 day passports because the price does not match the quality.>> Of course Disney's pricing strategy is such that they intentionally make the 1-4 day passports less atractive a buy because they want you to stay longer. Call it the SuperSize-It strategy... for just a little bit more money, you get a whole lot more.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>Furthermore.. with that statement, Roadtrip killed the little credibility I was willing to give to him, as a true fan would not EVER choose quantity over quality in regards to Disney.<< Not everyone has a Disney resort in their back yard, nor travels as part of their job to locations where they can be found. If the trip is a once every year or two trip, then the perspective can change. In this case I too could see quantity trumping quality (again, with the caveat that WDW's quality isn't terribly lower than DLR's).
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>For me I'd have to say that while quality should be the most important, quantity is indeed a factor when planning a vacation. I'm pretty sure that's what Trippy meant. << I agree. I don't think anyone would pick a trip to Six Flags World (if it existed) over a trip to DLR. The quality difference in that case would be too great.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Although TDLFAN (God love him) sometimes just sees what he wants to see in my posts, I did address the quality issue. In fact it was the sentence immediately following the one he quoted. <<Sorry, but at times quantity DOES beat quality. Especially when the quality difference is not that great and does not significantly impact your enjoyment in any way.>> I would not choose a park that was poor quality no matter how much it had. But the quality difference between DL and WDW, while noticeable, is still very small.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 ^^^^^^^^^ and on a 10 day trip - that cost per day drops pretty significantly also --
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Yep - for the 5 of us staying AKL Deluxe Savannah View, Dining Plan, full on hoppers plus DQ, PI, BB, TL etc. It's costing $600 a day or $120 each per day. That is a bargain!
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 Some thoughts on Al's column without reading the past 96 posts yet (busy with more important stuff, sorry). Suffice to say, I think Al finally 'gets it' ... because the column has been what I've been preaching on and offline for the better part of the past decade since WDW jumped Bruce with its 25th Anniversary Celebration that Never Ended and never had any substance. Now some comments: <<Disney’s Orlando outpost is full of outdated technology, suffers from a tired and unimaginative entertainment department, and is still paying a very heavy price for some poor planning decisions made by the now thankfully gone Michael Eisner. >> And don't forget our old buddy Paul Pressler and my pal Al Weiss. You can almost point to Weiss' rise in power in 1994 coupled with Frank Wells death in 1995, all coming on the heels of Euro Disney's tough opening, to see why 1996 was a watershed date in the quality of WDW taking the nosedive as the place simply became too big. And in Disney resorts, size definitely takes a back seat to quality. The WDW that I grew up with in the 1970s and 80s began a slow and steady decline in the 90s as soon as the Disney Decade turned into the Let's Buildout the Property (mostly with hotels and later timeshares) Decade. <<Add to all this a bloated current management team that cannot think out of the box and is complacent about their offerings as well as their target audience, and you have a less than state-of-the-art, increasingly stale vacation product to show for it.>> Many of the Florida execs have trouble thinking period. And so many of the old guard who knew and upheld the Disney Legacy have either died, retired or forced out. And then there's Weiss, who will sell his soul to have a position high on the totem pole, even if he is a WDW lifer. Stale doesn't begin to describe so much of WDW's offerings right now. And while there is hope and the future looks brighter, there's so much of a mess to fix because of sheer size. So while DAK gets better by the day, MGM gets worse, the MK gets blander and Epcot gets muddled. So while the Contemporary, Poly and WL get great new high-end rooms, other resorts remain tired and dirty. <<And whoever is in charge of food for the parks and hotels is doing a better job overall of providing assortment, value and quality in their menus than their counterpart at the Disneyland resort.>> Well, yes and no. As far as quick serve, absolutely ... although it would be nice to get those free refills we take for granted at DL! Full serve is a mixed bag. Some resturants like California Grill, Jiko, Boma, Artist Point, Flying Fish, Narcoosee's etc ... are just amazing culinary delights. But too many others have seen menus shrunk to 4-8 entrees, much like a cruise line, due to the Disney Magic Your Way Plus Dining Plan. It's simply about cutting cost and is embarassing. For instance I recently had a wonderful meal at the Coral Reef, but to see a seafood restaurant that is high end yet has ONE shrimp entree and NO lobster is just a freaking joke. It's been a long way from the old fresh daily menus that were PAGES long. <<But for every exemplary offering (dinner and fireworks at the California Grill at the top of the Contemporary Hotel, or Epcot’s TestTrack ride) there were too many more misses (run down attractions, static parades/never-changing entertainment, overdevelopment of the property) that took away from the overall experience. Considering a Disney vacation is not for the weak of wallet, the lack of quality and showmanship now painfully evident in Orlando is only magnified when you consider the premium costs involved.>> Gee, who's been saying this for years? ANd don't tell me you liked Test Track or I might lose some respect for you ;-) <<Now you would think that the overhead video screens on the bus would be a great way to get Disney’s message across to a receptive (and very captive) audience. So it’s too bad then that the videos shown to us are extolling the now concluded happiest homecoming celebration and the now gone Cinderella castle show at the Magic Kingdom. It’s only the first example on this trip of how sloppily and rushed the Year of a Million Dreams promotion appears to have been implemented at the parks.>> Don't blame the YoaMD. WDW is always behind with things like this these days. A good example is how they often (almost always) have the incorrect park hours displayed on the boards at the parks and resorts. Or how updated info isn't put into printed materials. <<Our first destination, the Caribbean Beach Resort, was the first of the large mid-priced/moderate hotel complexes built at WDW. It was extensively refurbished a few years back during the Pressler-era when the complaints from visitors got loud enough. Currently it is a very clean facility that has yet again seen much better days as far as wear and tear goes. It needs a bit of a freshening up, with some chipped paint on the walls, worn carpeting and dinged furniture, so hopefully that will be soon in coming. But then again, it is clean and the prices are right for our budgets.>> Bad, bad choice in lodging, buddy. CBR is the worst of the moderates. It was thoroughly redone in late 2000-mid 2001. A year later it was already showing lots of wear and tear. For some reason it just doesn't age well vs. the other mods on property. But I'm glad your rooms were clean at least ... but did you check near the beds, under the furniture, on top of the armoire etc ... always find surprises. <<As I understand it the five to seven entree menu policy was implemented to speed up both service and diners, so they can turn over more tables at peak periods. While it is very efficient, I do miss the wider selection they used to offer. This type of bottom-line focused policy would become more apparent to us as we spent time on property.>> Correct. As I said, it's also largely due to the Disney Dining Program. With a captive audience you simply don't need to offer 14 entrees when you can do six. <<To me Epcot has always been the most inelegant of the Disney parks, due to its hybrid nature. Originally more educational in its aim, with a world's fair inspired design, it's now also the home of some of the more extreme rides Disney has been focusing on lately. I'm still not quite sure that fine French dining and state-of-the-art centrifuge rides mix all that well.>> Well, did Al ever visit the REAL EPCOT Center (circa 1982-92)? The park has become a mess because to have a world's fair type park requires frequent and costly updates. Throwing a wand over SSE and calling the place 'Disney's Discovery Park' makes it a whole lot more ambiguous. And if you ever saw one of three major prior plans for a Space Pavilion, I doubt you'd be so impresed with a $175-million plus centrifuge as kewl as the ride experience may be. <<I did the higher intensity "Orange" team version and thought the various sensations they achieved were outstanding. This easily took the crown as WDW's premier ride. I did feel a little dizzy once I got off though, and tumbled a bit down the incredibly long and unthemed hallways you have to take to exit the ride.>> Really? Better than ToT? Better than the Safaris at DAK? Better than Splash Mtn? Interesting. <<After TestTrack, Mission:Space and Nemo we found that the rest of the attractions at Epcot were really not kept or refurbished up to their potential anymore. A shaky Ben Franklin trembled up a staircase in the tinny sounding American Adventure AA show, while the Impressions de France film was noticeably mis-aligned, worn and the projector gates were dirty, shown in a very beat-up theater that was at the French pavilion.>> Talk to Brad Rex, the VP since Karl 'Bleeping' Holz went to DLP via DCL. He was in finance his entire career, but somehow is qualified to run this amazing park. As to the films, that's a common theme at WDW (even the newish Soarin) ... as are AAs that simply aren't maintained at all. <<Even the nighttime lagoon fireworks extravaganza, Illuminations, suffers with a blown out and distortion filled sound system as well as a much too short show.>> I just don't agree at all. Illuiminations: RoE is just an amazing show and I've seen it hundreds of times. Sound quality and length have never been issues. <<We didn't partake of the Food & Wine Festival due to costs, plus I felt that all the little sampling booths and tents around the World Showcase lagoon sort of turned that half of the park into a giant food court.>> Again, I must disagree. Food and Wine is a great event. Missed a lot by not sampling ... and many of the presentations/tastings are free. My only complaint is it isn't being freshened enough year to year. <<A final disappointment was the rather depressing Leave a Legacy monument addition to the Epcot entry plaza - it sort of turned that area into a funereal experience.>> Sickening. Disney is actually blaming John Hench for this. Maybe he shouldn't have been designing in his 90s ;-) ... Or maybe the stones were his idea, but not the pics. <<other than to say that SpiderMan over at IoA is probably still the best of any of the new rides, and Men in Black at its sister Studios park just about equals it as a shoot 'em up that wallows in its wonderful retro/'60's design. >> Yep. Two great attractions with another based on the Simpsons on the way. I am amazed at how many Diznoids are afraid or won't leave Disney property to see how wonderful Uni's parks are. <<The Haunted Mansion sounds awful and looks terrible inside - with torn scrims and distorted speakers in the doombuggies. The neglect here, not to mention the failure to even try the Nightmare Before Christmas makeover borders on the almost criminal.>> Agreed on both counts. BTW, Mansion Holiday was approved for MK in 2005, but Holmes, Wallace and Weiss all said 'No thanks. We don't need it.' What's even more pathetic is that Holmes got his start at Disney as a Mansion CM ... you wonder if he has even ridden thru once in his tenure! <<The Country Bears are a shell of what they used to be, and the Carousel of Progress is heartbreaking to see in this less than optimal presentation. The Carousel animatronic faces look like plastic and their jerky movements are showing signs of wear.>> Do you know how many AA's have been ripped from WDW since the early 90s? Hundreds have gone. I am not even sure if Disney actually has anyone that specializes in them on staff anymore. They don't want them in Florida ... sure they'll stick one giant Yeti (that isn't as great as advertised and doesn't work half the time) or one Stitch in, but shows/attractions with dozens? Never again. <<The most beautiful of the WDW parks is also one of the most compromised from its original vision. If Animal Kingdom were a Broadway show it would be praised for its spectacular intermission and first act, then the audience would angrily stalk out of the theater once they discovered there was no more show to see.>> I think Al's being overly harsh on DAK. It is by far the high point of stateside park building under Eisner. Would it have been better with Beastly Kingdomme? Of course. Would Tiger River Rapids been better than Kali? Yep. Is there any need for Camp Touchy-Feely? Nope. But at least you do have a coherent, cohesive park that tells a story ... and yes, even Dinoland works on that level. Full-serve food is on the way. Another major addition is being considered. Nemo the Musical will likely be quite good. And I'd expect to see a Steve Davison nighttime spectacle in 2008 for the park's 10th anniversary. <<The Dinosaur ride turned out to be an incomprehensible Indy ride system clone, the confusing pre-show and way too dark interiors left many people wondering what had happened as they exited. The McDonalds ride sponsorship was loudly announced here every few minutes. >> While it pales vs. Indy, Dinosaur is a pretty darn good ride on its own merits. Yeah, there's too much dark space. But most people get the story, love the dinos and exit with smiles. <<With just two major E-tickets (the well-themed Tower of Terror, the more simplistic Rock 'n' Roller Coaster) the half-day Studios park has never really fulfilled it's promise. A badly reworked Fantasmic imported from Disneyland didn't help creatively either. >> Do you know how much of the original studios has disappeared? What's left is a muddled mess. So many empty spaces. ANd the newest addition (the LMA Stunt Show) has been very unsuccessful in driving attendance. Hence, Midway Mania being rushed into the park. And while I agree about Fantasmic, it is a HUGE crowd pleaser ... but then again, so is Test Track! <<maybe it's time to radically rethink this park and restore its original mission.>> I don't see that ever happening. Actual production was supposed to happen. And let's not discuss how a huge animation studio that was single-handedly responsible for the Roger Rabbit shorts, Mulan, Lilo&Stitch and Brother Bear as well as parts of Lion King, Tarzan and Fantasia 2000 was shut down. <<The changes in quality Disneyland saw in the 1990’s were caused by just a small handful of executives brought in from the outside world. The changes in quality Walt Disney World has seen in the last ten years are caused not by a particular person, but by a bloated bureaucracy driven by marketers and spreadsheets instead of showmen and keepers of the Disney flame. >> Yes. That's a large part of it, but not all. Many of the oldtimers at WDW left after the third gate opened. Many others were pushed out as the 90s began. The ones left behind were savvy enough to realize they either had to adapt to Eisner's 'lean, mean, do everything' Disney or leave. This was also the time two other factors came into play: first outsiders began to filter into Team Disney Orlando with no particular allegiance or affinity for the product. Many mocked the parks and their guests and cast. Some with outright contempt. Second came the outside consultants. As bad as the execs were, the consultants were worse because they took tens of millions to tell Disney how to break their product. They were the reason that MK walkways stopped getting nightly pressure-cleaning. They were the reason why housekeepers stopped vacuuming guest rooms. They were why Disney started buying cheaper, less quality products (everything from pool furniture to food). They were behind having CMs take their costumes home with them. They were why menus were streamlined. They were why Disney suddenly decided after decades that the MK didn't have to stay open til midnight in summer when it could trim 2-4 hours of labor savings. They told Disney execs to stop doing everything to ensure quality, they introduced outsourcing to Orlando. They treated Disney like any other corporate client and the results were disasterous because Eisner and Pressler and Weiss took their word over 40 years of operating the best theme parks in the world. <<The problems in Orlando seem to lie in the way the entire place is set up at the senior levels of management, and how surprisingly powerless many of those executives actually are when it comes to preserving the quality standards Walt Disney World used to be known for. The property is sprawling, there is no doubt about that, and minor fiefdoms easily spring up on those 43 square miles. Where in Anaheim a single Vice President is in charge of all of the operational departments of both theme parks, in Orlando a park like the Magic Kingdom has both a Park Vice President and a Resort Vice President who control the various operational departments like Attractions or Custodial or Guest Relations. For the Magic Kingdom, where the maintenance problems are most severe, there’s Phil Holmes as the park Vice President. But he’s outranked by Erin Wallace who is the Vice President of the entire Disney property, who reports to Meg Crofton the Human Resources policy wonk recently promoted to President of Walt Disney World. >> And what do they all have in common? They are all ultimately puppets with almost no power other than to please Jay Rasulo and strengthen his strangehold on a job he isn't equipped for. And because WDW doesn't have an Al Lutz of its own, they can operate virtually anonymously, in the shadows, working to destroy a Legacy. <<Yet all of those Vice Presidents and executives of various importance overlapping each other at all four theme parks have surprisingly little impact on the ability to make decisions regarding the funding of upgrades to the parks or individual departments they allegedly control. In Orlando, Walt Disney World’s marketing department seems to set the tone and the budgets for what eventually finds its way into the parks.>> Al hit the nail on the head here. Marketing and PR BS runs the WDW machine. <<In a previous MiceAge update we'd told you of the senior Magic Kingdom managers who recently came out to Anaheim to experience the decades old but now again lovingly maintained and upgraded E Tickets like Pirates, Haunted Mansion, Jungle Cruise, Space Mountain, Autopia, etc. and walked away from their Disneyland experience with their jaws dropped open. In Orlando those folks simply aren’t given the money to invest in their aging infrastructure because the marketing department has convinced Orlando’s senior executives that the tourists will show up anyway so there’s no need to keep the facilities up to Disney’s old standards or plus the park entertainment with fresh ideas and new technology. >> It's simply utter contempt for the visitors, especially tourists and DVCers (who are STUCK with whatever Disney does for 43 years). The attitude is so opposite what it was even 15 years ago. Disney always was planning bigger and better (and fresher) things for the future. But no more. The biggest master plan at Team Disney Orlando, if you have access to a certain room, is the master plan for DVC. That's what the Orlando property represents, a giant timeshare world. Period. You think that's what Walt had in mind when he said 'We have enough land here for all the ideas we can possibly imagine'? And APers, oldtimers (like myself), folks who know things are better at other Disney outposts in the world ... well, Orlando execs would just like us to go away ... or spend our money, but don't bitch when Disney can't even meet our diminished expectations let alone exceed our grand ones. <<The endless bureaucracy in Orlando is mind-boggling, and the waste on departments that no paying customer would ever encounter is stomach churning. The end result is major attractions that creak and groan through their 35-year-old routines without a hardware upgrade in sight, park holiday decorations that appear to have been stolen from a Junior High cafeteria, and live entertainment that plays for decades and is more often worthy of a 1980’s Carnival cruise ship. >> So I take it Al was less than impressed with the Halloween decor? ;-) <<Certainly there are major new rides, or a new stage show or parade added to a Disney World park every few years. But that only brings up the second problem the Orlando property faces, and that’s the lack of a consistent and politically powerful Imagineering presence on the property. Whenever a major new attraction is being built in Orlando, an army of Imagineers are sent out from Glendale to work on it to bolster the ranks of the small Imagineering team in Orlando. And their work is often some of the finest WDI can pull off, even though their budgets have dwindled in the last ten years. But once the new ride or show is up and running and the Good Morning America camera crew is long gone, most of the Imagineers return home to Southern California and the Orlando property is left with a skeleton crew on site that doesn’t have much clout with the executives in the Team Disney building. The attraction or facility is then left to sit for decades to come with only the most minimal refurbishments or upkeep given >> And that's why so many effects on Expedition Everest have simply never been fixed/turned on. That's why the CBJ looks worse than a local Chuck E Cheese's. That's why half the effects in Mansion aren't optimal. That's why ... well, I'm tired of writing but you get the idea. Again, I'm sure you guys have already gone over many of these points, but since I just posted the same comments on Al's site and I'm a regular here, I thought I'd add mine. Hopefully, I'll have time to read over the other 96 posts this weekend!
Originally Posted By Witches of Morva ORDDU: My sisters and I would like to point out that, despite the problems with maintenance and what not at the Disney theme parks, it's STILL quite possible to have a wonderful time there. That is why we continue visiting them and it's also why Al Lutz continues to visit them. The main point he--and we--often try to make is merely that things could and should be so much better than they are. The beauorcratic nightmares at Walt Disney World--in particular--are what we see as the real enemy here. Instead of being a well oiled machine, the processes behind the scenes present the most unbelievable ostacles. It would be laughable if it weren't so sad. ORWEN: None-the-less, we continue to have fun at the parks and would always encourage Disney fans to go and experience the fun. After all, regardless of the problems at the Disney theme parks, I'd rather be at any one of them instead of a dreary place like the marshes of Morva!
Originally Posted By Witches of Morva ORGOCH: Well, I just wanna' know one thing. What's a ostacle? ORWEN: I think she meant to say obstacles.
