Originally Posted By vbdad55 <<< If you stripped out the DVC time share sales and real estate transactions at Celebration that Disney has used to pad the bottom line for the past 10 years, you would find that Disney parks aren't all that profitable. On a park by park basis, most of them lose more money than they generate.>> Thank you. Many on these boards say that the reason WDW parks are suffering is because of the money spent on building DVC units. The truth of the matter, as you have indicated, is that the profits from DVC have subsidized the WDW parks and provided a greater level of maintenance an d service than would otherwise be possible. as we have been over this ground time and time again, I still agree with both of you and no need to add more at this point for me - you synopsized it well.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <DVC is a huge plus to the bottom line, but that is almost total profit. If you think Saratoga Springs sales are going to finance the next E-Ticket for the MK, you're wrong. < could and should are two different things. DVC profit allows for them to be able to plunk money into E tickets - if they so chose, and much more readily than if DVC did not exist. Now if management chooses to absorb the money from the cash cow that is DVC today..and not return it to the parks - that is a whole different set of issues
Originally Posted By mrichmondj <<< So you're saying the hotels make no profit? Food and merchandise make no profit? Tix make no profit? Just revenue to cover operating expenses? So before DVC, WDW was about to close down because it never made any money ... let alone hundreds of millions in annual PROFIT? >>> The parks are profitable -- just not profitable enough to pay for the annual capital expenditures by themselves. They are historically cash flow negative. Only in the past couple of years have they been cash flow positive, and that has been by a small margin. If Disney accountants considered the building of new attractions an operating expense, and it counted against the bottom line, the parks would not be profitable in most years. The cable networks, broadcast, and studio are frequently cash flow positive. There's not a great deal of reinvestment that is required in those businesses and the return on investment for a blockbuster film is significant compared to what is spent on an e-ticket and the return on investment there. I want to make sure I understand your point before I call it crazy.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <If Disney accountants considered the building of new attractions an operating expense, and it counted against the bottom line, the parks would not be profitable in most years. < surely would take a severe hit in any year you try and open an Everest or MS with the cost associated with them...
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Spirit, you seem VERY impressed with your own credentials and credibility. >> I am impressed by myself, yes. I don't feel the need to apologize for not being ordinary. I also have had people use my knowledge and skills against me as well. But I also feel a bit sad because I was raised to believe that if someone had a very important job, they must be highly intelligent, they must have worked their way into the position. I know enough about the inner workings of TWDC to know that isn't at all true. Some of the highest execs are complete and utter incompetents. To the point they really should be working for WalMart or selling used cars. <<And you seem to expect us to be similarly impressed.>> Expect? I expect nothing. I am posting what I want to put out there. You can feel however you choose to. <<Yet you don't provide us with the substantive information that would allow us to revere you as fervently as you revere yourself.>> Revere myself? The only Revere I know of is a town in Massachusetts ... likely named after that Paul McCartney dude (you know, the British are coming with their pasty white skin and black socks with sandals ... the British are coming and she loves you yeah, yeah, yeah). I actually suffer from low self-esteem. But the more people I meet, the better I feel about myself. <<Our loss, no doubt.>> I think most people who know me would agree (but certain Disney execs would not be among them!)
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 Thanks for the response, I guess, Spirit. Post #164 tells me all I need to know about your credibility. And it makes me sad.
Originally Posted By oc_dean Well .... while all this is going on.... WDW overall is entertaining... But there have been slips that need help. The bickering between personality types seems so trivial.
Originally Posted By oc_dean I just have to say .... All the people around here claiming to be some kind of financial wiz, know-it-alls .... knowing exactly why some things don't get done in the Walt Disney Co. just cracks me up! At age 42 living close to all the action in Glendale and Burbank .. and all my collective knowledge .. all the people who I've met over the course of 20 years .. some big people .. some old time biggies connected Roy Sr. who still know what goes on in the Co. to this day ...... It is not a lack of money ... But Disney of today has DEvolved into one giant beaurocracy! That is the problem! The "single" vision that continued into the 70s with the development of EPCOT .. and everything good that came out of Eisner from '84 to '94 ... is gone. Now .. why don't some of you attack me ... and devolve into some immature tirade? Go for it! I'm glad for the "overall" picture I have of the company .. due to big people I have met .. who've told me "a few" things. Money issues (!). Yeah, right. Try ... "cop out".
Originally Posted By kennect Ok, confused....Is there a poster here saying the parks afren't profitable for the company?
Originally Posted By iamadisneyfan77 "Many on these boards say that the reason WDW parks are suffering is because of the money spent on building DVC units. The truth of the matter, as you have indicated, is that the profits from DVC have subsidized the WDW parks and provided a greater level of maintenance an d service than would otherwise be possible. as we have been over this ground time and time again, I still agree with both of you and no need to add more at this point for me - you synopsized it well." I'm surprised by the amount of DVC bashing that is going on in this discussion! DVC membership is a wonderful way to visit the World for Disney addicts (and there are many of us!). If Disney doesn't won't use the profits from DVC sales wisely, that's not the fault or responsibility of the owners. This eagerness to bash some of WDW's most frequent, loyal (and probably wealthier) guests makes me wonder if some of DVC's detractors are a little jealous of those who own...perhaps because they are unable to themselves???
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>Where does this information come from? Though, not directly stated in the company's financial disclosures, there is occasionally fine print information in the annual report that indicates DLR doesn't pull its own weight. << True, they don't break down where the income is generated. But if DL was really losing money, then why keep putting money into it? Why not shut it down? The exit costs can't be that high, and they would make a killing selling off the real estate. I am of course talking pre expansion. Now that they have dumped all that capital into DCA, DtD and the GC they will need to recover that investment before writing it off. But if there were really no return on improving the parks, then I think that they would just stop spending money on improving them and just milk them dry.
Originally Posted By jkayjs After 170 posts there is one thing that is crystal clear to me. Contraversy is the best way to get noticed. I assure you I would never have read the article by Al Lutz if this topic hadn't been posted. There are only a couple of site's that I read anything but the discussion section on and that is Deb's and LP. Since I usually go directly to that section I really wouldn't see any articles. This may be my loss but I have such time restraints this is how I've chosen to spend the time I have. I've posted this before but it bears repeating. When my cousin was very young I was sitting for him. I was making him lunch and asked if he wanted a PB&J. He looked @ me in total disbelief that I would even ask him that question and responded "I can't like peanut butter cause I like jelly". There are some folks that just can not entertain any point of view but their own while others try to see both sides of the coin. The one thing that is certain is that no one person on these boards(or anywhere for that matter) knows everything that pertains to this issue or has the one absolute answer to the solution. That being said the very existance of these boards opens a discussion and fosters an ownership of ideas and contributions that wouldn't otherwise exist. If the Disney suits read these boards as has been repeatedly stated there can be no doubt in their minds how important the parks and resorts are to many their fan base. My guess is that there are many folks in the company that appreciate the many reviews that may very well support changes they have attempted to secure. I guess I am a Pollyanna in many ways as I always try to find the best in folks. For that I make no apology. I do see the many improvements the parks/resorts are in need of but that does not keep me from truely enjoying the magic that is there. Not to trivialize anyone or their point of view as I've said before; for myself my day to day existance is so very real, life and death real, I use WDW as my escape and hope that never changes. Would I like to see things better? You bet. Do I think topics like this may help? I sure hope so. The personal attacks really do nothing but increase the # of posts and I'm sure provide an outlet for some aggression. Attempting to put someone in "their place" in cyberspace is as productive as spitting in the wind altho probably less wet and disgusting. Thanks Doobie and Rebekah for providing this forum.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN >>If some of our intrepid reporters like the Spirit and TDLFAN do not understand this basic concept, how can they possibly be qualified to comment on any other aspect of the Disney operation? Long story short... they can't.<< Why bring me into this? I do not care to comment on DVC or Disney's finances because I simply DO NOT CARE about that aspect of the operation... My aim is to be a satisfied park goer thru excellent park/ride/cleanliness standards, of which WDW does not deliver on a constant basis. So Road Trip, stop the simple-minded attempts to involve me in your eloquent but unimportant contributions to this board.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Thanks for the response, I guess, Spirit. Post #164 tells me all I need to know about your credibility. And it makes me sad.>> Then, that's very sad. But you can feel however you choose about me, much like Al Lutz. It would be nice however if you could respond to points that are brought up instead of your (limited) views of those doing the bringing up. Just a thought ... So to bring this thread back 'on topic' what exactly did you feel wasn't true in Al's column? Or did you just have a problem with his opinions? Or the fact he didn't choose to point out all the great things about WDW? Or do you just have an anti-Al bias?
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I'm surprised by the amount of DVC bashing that is going on in this discussion! >> Excuse me, but I must have missed the bashing. Can you give some examples? <<DVC membership is a wonderful way to visit the World for Disney addicts (and there are many of us!). >> For some, it is, no doubt. <<If Disney doesn't won't use the profits from DVC sales wisely, that's not the fault or responsibility of the owners.>> True. And who ever suggested otherwise? <<This eagerness to bash some of WDW's most frequent, loyal (and probably wealthier) guests makes me wonder if some of DVC's detractors are a little jealous of those who own...perhaps because they are unable to themselves???>> Sounds like you're a DVC snob to me who can't face the fact many people don't feel it is a good way to spend their vacation dollars.
Originally Posted By oc_dean >>I think you two have crushes on each other.<< Suddenly I feel an urge to watch "American Beauty".
Originally Posted By oc_dean >>I do not care to comment on DVC or Disney's finances because I simply DO NOT CARE about that aspect of the operation... My aim is to be a satisfied park goer thru excellent park/ride/cleanliness standards, of which WDW does not deliver on a constant basis.<< My sentiments exactly.
Originally Posted By iamadisneyfan77 Spirit, perhaps "Bashing" was too strong a word. But I have noticed while reading this (otherwise very interesting and articulate) discussion a definite anti-DVC bias from some, as if DVC expansion is to blame for WDW's woes and those who buy into the program are somehow "enabling" Disney to continue with status quo. I could be misinterpreting this, but I don't think so. I could also be off-target with my "jealousy" theory, but it's one explanation from some of this antagonism I've picked up on. Perhaps the reason for the unabted DVC expansion is that for many frequent WDW visitors/fans with the means--those who are committed to visting the World for decades and love being immerersed in the entire resort experience--DVC is a great choice for pre-paying luxury family accomodations. BTW, I don't know if I can be considered a "DVC snob", since I don't actually own there (yet!). Woudln't that violate some law of physics or something?
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Why bring me into this? I do not care to comment on DVC or Disney's finances because I simply DO NOT CARE about that aspect of the operation.>> TDLFAN, I thought you've criticized DVC fairly often. If I was confusing you with someone else I apologize. <<So Road Trip, stop the simple-minded attempts to involve me in your eloquent but unimportant contributions to this board.>> Geez... what the heck do you EXPECT from someone with a frozen brain. You expect eloquence AND importance??
