Originally Posted By jonvn "Isn't that the backstage area where the parades go? " Yes. And it would also mean closing down the hat shop there. There is no room for a line for any ride there.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros I would say that they could easily fit a line the same size as Peter Pan's in the area that's currently used for the preshow with the offices and all. We all know that the PP line can get quite long, but it's cleverly routed (not sure if they can still do that with ADA requirements as much) and uses the space very well. It's not the size, it's how you use it! : )
Originally Posted By jonvn Again. Look at the line for the ride in Florida. That is the size of line they would have been expecting for this ride, as that is how large the line is that they made. There is no place to put something like that there.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros You also need to consider the other attractions in the parks. DL has one of the highest attraction counts of any theme park in the world, so the crowds will spread themselves out between things. The early days of MGM (and still now) didn't have this luxury, with only about a dozen (being generous) attractions open. This means that they all had long lines because there just wasn't that much to do. Similar to how the Nemo lines leveled out, people would see a line stretching out the door and only be willing to wait so long for it. If they really wanted to bring the Muppets to Disneyland, I don't think the queue space would have stopped them. They're not that foolish to let something that small stop an entire project. Heck, they could have split the pre-show area into two floors, and double the space they had to hold twice as many people. There are options that could have been taken if they really wanted too. Clearly they just saw that it wasn't the best fit overall, whether because of theme, size, popularity (or lack there of), some other issues, or a combination of all of the above.
Originally Posted By jonvn "I don't think the queue space would have stopped them" Except it did. There is no place to put a line for the thing without disrupting the entire town square area. That is not small, considering that one of the tunnel entrances/exits is right there. "Heck, they could have split the pre-show area into two floors" Even if this were possible, it doesn't matter how much room they used inside the building. There is no room OUTSIDE the building to handle any overflow crowds without shutting down main street vehicles and blocking one of the parks entrance/exit tunnels.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros They could have easily done a couple switchbacks out in front of the building on the sidewalk, and then routed the line single file up Main Street. It wouldn't be ideal, but that didn't stop them from routing the Indy line (literally) all over the park at times. If they could do it in 1995, why couldn't they have done it in 1991?
Originally Posted By jonvn "They could have easily done a couple switchbacks out in front of the building on the sidewalk" And when those filled up? You can't have the line routing single file up main street. That would block all the shop entrances on basically a permanent basis. While Indy did have long lines, as did Captain Eo when it opened, that was temporary. Any time a show in this theater would get crowded, it would cause a mess on main street doing what you suggest. It has nothing to do with 95 vs 91. It has to do with there just physically being no room to place people.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros Why would Indy and EO have temporarily long lines while the Muppet one would be permanently long? I'm not suggesting that the queue would permanently stretch down Main Street. Heck, they could turn the center area of Town Square into switchbacks, which would definately be able to hold the crowds. They would need a CM to work the crossover point, but it's been done before. This way, the vehicle traffic can go around the queue and folks can still get into the store. Sure, Town Square's a mess for a while, but it will go away. I don't think that the Muppets ever got reviews that came even close to the glowing reports from Captain EO. I would assume that the Imagineers would know that it would't quite be that popular, and would be able to work with it. I'm picturing that the indoor area could hold about 3 theaters full of people (6 if you make it 2 stories), the sidewalk could hold another 1 or 2, and Town Square could hold another 3. That's around 8 shows (really guessing here), which adds up to a nearly 2 hour wait. Even with Captain EO's busy opening, I don't think the crowds ever stretched very far past that point, and quickly settled to a more reasonable length. The same thing would happen with the Muppets. Also, if people see too much of a queue outside of an attraction, they start to get scared away from it (Star Tours, Buzz Lightyear, and Space Mountain all come to mind here). The first month or two could be a pain, but after that I'm sure the crowds would shrink to a very reasonable size. I really just don't see the problem that killed the Muppets on Main Street being something as silly as the queue space.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Why would Indy and EO have temporarily long lines while the Muppet one would be permanently long?" Because when rides first open, they have very long lines. That is why they stretched down to Main Street like that. A very long line for the Opera House would stretch into tomorrowland or something like that. That would be temporary. A typical line for something at this location would almost always stretch down main street. A short line for this would only crowd the area around town square, mess up entrance and exit access, and possibly crowd main street to the point where the vehicles could no longer function. And, sure, they could turn the center area of town square into switchbacks. That would only remove the dedication plaque, where the christmas tree is placed, the flag, and where the band comes to play the national anthem. And that would also mean you'd have to have control for people in the line and a permanent place where you could cross the street maintained and staffed. That would also be a nasty problem. There is no place to put a line. No matter what you come up with, it messes up operation of the area significantly. On a permanent basis. They wouldn't make it a two story queue area, because first, that would mean relocating all the sound equipment that is upstairs, but more importantly, it would create an absolutely claustrophobic line. Notice the height of the celings in indoor lines. They are all very high because if you make them really low, people will be extremely uncomfortable. It's not practical. It doesn't work. That's why you're not going to see a big extravaganza there, ever.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros It doesn't have to be a big extravaganza, but I also don't think that Muppets ever qualified as a big extravaganza. It was a nice addition, but I don't think anybody at all visited the park just because it was there. Did they enjoy it while they were there anyway? Sure, but it wasn't the highlight of their day. As for moving sound equipment, they would most likely have to do that anyway (assuming you're talking about equipment for the Opera House, not some larger scale system for all of DL) to adjust everything with the new uses. I wasn't even aware that there was room above the current set-up, but they could definately add a second floor without needing to take out space above it. Using smaller rooms, they could get away with having a lower ceiling, like the Jungle Cruise boathouse. This would also give them the opportunity to theme it really well and fill it with jokes. As for Town Square, I don't think it would fill up on a regular basis after the first month or so of operation (even less if they opened it during the off-season to let the newness wear off a little before the big crowds came). And I wasn't talking about leveling what's there, but rather installing switchbacks around the current planters and such. That would allow for a pretty pleasant place to wait, even though there is next to no shade. A CM would need to be staffed, but they do that at Indy's exit during busy periods when they use the JC boathouse for overflow, at the FP machines with Screamin, and they're talking about doing it again for TSMM. Sure, it sucks that they have to do it, but they've done it before, and they'll do it again. The crowd won't be that big for long. If there's something that we've seen more than anything else at DL, it's that movies (especially 3D) seem to become yesterday's news faster than yesterday's news. Yes, they would have a tough month or so right around opening, but they would deal with it like they had for 35 years. No matter where the attraction is (unless they want to make an E ticket where the treehouse currently sits), I really don't see queue space ever becoming a big enough factor that it will stop the attraction from coming completely. Buzz had a pretty crappy spot for those things, but it managed alright. Nemo's situation is less than ideal, but I haven't heard anybody in the park complaining about it (though there have been plenty of confused folks trying to get off the Monorail!). Peter Pan (and related strollers) often extend far beyond their welcome, but people adapt. Part of the beauty of DL is that it's like a living creature. It changes and adapts to work around the daily struggles. There was potential for problems for a little while, but long term they would have handled it. I think they ultimately just decided that it wasn't worth screwing up Main Street (theme wise or traffic wise) that much to get the attraction that just didn't quite fit. I'm going to sleep...
Originally Posted By Skellington88 "Twice, Disneyland tried to replace its sparsely attended Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln, sparking public outcires. "Whenever you remove an attraction, you're going to meet some resistance from the die-hards," says writer/creative director Ryan Harmon. "The lincoln theather sits at the park's main entry and exit. People walk right by on their way in and out. The hat shop next door does better than Lincoln! But when it got out that we were going to put Muppetvision 4-D in its place, people freaked. So I was asked to write a new show for an intimate space next to the Disney Gallery. One concept was a Lincoln-Douglas debate that included a period campaign train car parked outside. It would ave been a better show, but people started writing letters. So Lincoln's still there, playing to crowds of seven." - Mouse Under Glass by David Koenig
Originally Posted By jonvn "It doesn't have to be a big extravaganza, but I also don't think that Muppets ever qualified as a big extravaganza." Yeah, it was a pretty big deal. And yes, they expected people to come and see this show. And yes, it is larger scale sound equipment. Sound for the parades is run from the upper floor of that building. Not that big a deal to move. The Jungle Cruise upper floor is OUTSIDE. Inside lines would give people panic attacks if they had a low ceiling. It wouldn't be done. "I don't think it would fill up on a regular basis after the first month or so of operation" It's good that you feel confident. Disney can't afford to spend millions of dollars on something and then have it block the entire entrance area to the park, or several shops along their main shopping area. Really. There just is no room for a practical line that may get very large. It would have the effect of blocking the entrance way, making the place looked mobbed as you walk in. It would suck all the charm out of the area and replace it with a large line filled with people standing in the sun in Town Square. Nothing worked. The plan was abandoned. The line is why.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Mouse Under Glass by David Koenig" That's nice But they never had to do that show, did they, because they DIDN'T REMOVE THE SHOW that would necessitate it.
Originally Posted By cwade Ok, am I the only one of the face of this earth that thinks that is could actually be GOOD? Really, I like the idea of an update for it's a small world, everyone said how bad the ideas for POTC and HM were when we heard about the updates for them and they turned out great! Trust Disney Imagineering on this one and IF it turns out bad, then complain, but wait until we see the end result.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Where would you put it? There really is no room for one.> FerretAfros answered this very well. He also pointed out that rides like Indy retain long lines much longer than 3-D movies do. Any large-scale lines would not have lasted long at Muppets. The queue area would not have to have been as large as at MGM because when Muppets was built there they had fewer than 10 attractions. Most to the point, Lincoln rarely overflowed the building at all, even in the mid-60's. And a). Lincoln in the mid-60's was considered more of a marvel than the Muppets in the 90's, and b). Everyone under 17 got a free ticket to Lincoln (and good only for Lincoln), which meant that most families in the park would go see it on any given day, certainly in the 60's. Yet the lines rarely overflowed. Lastly, the 50th anniversary film, AFAIK, never overflowed the building either, and wouldn't all us Disney geeks have to see that, at least once, and weren't crowds huge for the 50th? Yet I don't recall reports of it EVER overflowing. That theatre complex handles crowds better than you think.
Originally Posted By monorailblue <<Why would Indy and EO have temporarily long lines while the Muppet one would be permanently long?>> Right on. <<A typical line for something at this location would almost always stretch down main street.>> Rubbish.
Originally Posted By SFH By the way, I believe the space that was considered for some new Lincoln show in NO Square is the space over French Market, which is currently storage. I remember whet MV4D was being talked about for the Opera House. I don't think the line was the major reason it didn't happen. I know Disney fans made a big stink about removing The Walt Disney Story Featuring Great Moments With Mr. Lincoln for the Muppets, but I have no way of knowing for sure how much of the "general public" really cared. It does make for good publicity - "By popular demand, we kept things this way." It would have taken considerable work to get the MV4D show into the Opera House. SFH
Originally Posted By jonvn "am I the only one of the face of this earth that thinks that is could actually be GOOD? " No. There are many people who think it's a good idea. "FerretAfros answered this very well." Nothing he suggested would work in a practical manner. "Any large-scale lines would not have lasted long at Muppets." Glad you have such a well tuned crystal ball. The thing is at the time, there was no way to know this, nor was this entering into the thinking, and also, even if it did not last a long time, any time there would be a long line, it would have been extremely disruptive to the park entrances, shopping on Main Street, and the Town Square area in general. "Most to the point, Lincoln rarely overflowed the building at all" Which is WHY it was being replaced. Jesus, how much more do I have to spell this out? They were replacing it because they wanted to overflow the building. That was the point. "Rubbish." Right. Where would you put the line, in the fouth dimension? It has to go someplace. If the line is long, where does it go? Indy and captain Eo were built with a line built into the infrastructure of the attraction. On regular long line days, they are set up so as to be able to handle these crowds. There is no facility to do that with the Opera House. There is no place to put these people. The line would swarm over the walkway in front of the building, and snake down Main Street whenever the thing got crowded. Know why? Because it is ON Main Street. It doesn't have to burrow through other lands, and it doesn't have to be massively crowded to cause trouble in the area, because IT IS ALREADY THERE. Woof. "It does make for good publicity - "By popular demand, we kept things this way."" That is precisely what happened. It simply was annouced in that manner but the truth is that the show simply could not have been put in that building.
Originally Posted By Skellington88 >>That's nice But they never had to do that show, did they, because they DIDN'T REMOVE THE SHOW that would necessitate it.<< Did you even read what I wrote? That paragraph explains why Licnoln wasnt removed. It wasnt removed due to people writing letters! Not because Muppetvision requires an abnormally long queue area.
