Originally Posted By jonvn "That paragraph explains why Licnoln wasnt removed" No. I am explaining why Lincoln wasn't removed. You are quoting something that discusses what happened around the same issue. And no, it's not an "abnormally long" line, there is simply no room for any line area.
Originally Posted By Skellington88 All I am saying is that Ryan Harmon was the imagineer who was heading up the whole lincoln removal/replacement thing and he says the change didnt happen due to fan demand not because the lines would be too long. The line issue doesn't really make sesne because Muppetvision isnt like Star Tours or Indy. It's not a MAJOR e-ticket. It's more of a d-ticket show that would have filled up the lincoln waiting area and put butts in the theater but I doubt the reason the project was canelled was concerns over crowd control.
Originally Posted By jonvn "All I am saying is that Ryan Harmon was the imagineer who was heading up the whole lincoln removal/replacement thing and he says the change didnt happen due to fan demand not because the lines would be too long. " You mean he said the change happened due to fan demand and not the line being too long, I assume. Did he also mention what color shirt he wore that day? Look, as has been said now, they came out with the comment that public demand caused them to ditch the project. But what really ditched the project was that the show simply could not be practically placed in that location. The lobby holds ONE theater full of people, and that's with it being crammed. You get two or three backups of shows in line, and you have a mess. This is the problem that killed the thing. "It's not a MAJOR e-ticket." At the time, it was. "I doubt the reason the project was canelled was concerns over crowd control. " OK, here's more: What do you do for a parade? The entire area is no longer usable as parade viewing grounds because of the line. What do you do to the bank? It is no longer usable because of the line. Where do you put switchbacks so that people are not filling the entire land up? You get two shows worth backup, not only does that fill the area in front of the building, and the area where the flag pole is, and then what? This is why no show of any real major popularity is ever going to be put there. The building itself was designed as a sound stage. It's not something that can be easily added to. They'll probably keep lincoln there or turn it into some other lightly attended show of some kind. Nothing of any great popularity can be put there.
Originally Posted By wonderingalice I'm surprised that the words Muppetvision and Opera House were ever used together in any meeting discussing a possible replacement for Mr. Lincoln. Muppetvision would "fit in" on Main Street about as well as Star Tours would. Bleecch. (And we really like Muppetvision a lot - where it is.)
Originally Posted By SFH There WERE a lot of people upset with some of the Muppets-in-Disneyland proposals, including MV4D for the theming/style-clash aspects. I can't believe there is such a long, detailed discussion here arguing over the reasons why something WASN'T built. We have what Ryan Harmon stated. I have never seen/heard anything to the effect of the waiting area being the problem, but it may have been. There are MANY factors that go into what gets "canceled" and what gets built, and why the things that ARE built end up the way they do... what's popular, what the park is lacking, what the costs are, is there outside financing that will support this, what technology will support, how much space there is, are guests asking for this, internal politics between individuals, factions, and corporate subsidiaries... etc. Sometimes, concepts are just that - concepts - and they never make it past a certain stage of the development process, or they are "trial balloons" or whatever. And rumors slip out. SFH
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <<"Most to the point, Lincoln rarely overflowed the building at all">> <Which is WHY it was being replaced. Jesus, how much more do I have to spell this out? They were replacing it because they wanted to overflow the building. That was the point.> I'm sorry, jon, but talk about missing the point... Did you not notice that I said Lincoln rarely overflowed the building even IN THE 60's? i.e. when he was new, extremely popular, and considered a marvel? In fact, in the mid-60's he was an E-ticket for adults. That's how great they thought he was. And anyone under 18 got a ticket good for Lincoln and only Lincoln. As a result, theatres were filled to capacity every show. I was there. And yet, no Main-street-ruining overflow crowds. That theatre handles large crowds pretty well. When Lincoln was installed in 1965 there was as yet no Pirates, no HM, no small world, no PeopleMover, no CofP... all those huge peopleeaters did not exist, and the capacity of the park was smaller than it would soon become. He was the only real AA in the park other than the Tiki Birds for a time. He was an E-ticket. He was considered a marvel. And kids got to see him free, and were given a special ticket good only for him, creating a great incentive to go see him. Yet the Main-street ruining crowds never happened. Fast forward to 1991. The muppets, though popular, haven't had their weekly show in 10 years. 3-D movies are nothing new. AA's are nothing new. People would go see it, sure, but it wasn't something that they would sit in rapt amazement at, as 1965 audiences did at Mr. Lincoln. And not something that would draw greater crowds than Mr. Lincoln did at that time.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Did you not notice that I said Lincoln rarely overflowed the building even IN THE 60's" Yes, that's why it was replaced so early. Mr. Lincoln ran out of steam within a year or two, actually. "Yet the Main-street ruining crowds never happened. " A lot of that was because of ticket books, which rationed rides you could go on. That being said, I recall waiting in very crowded lobbies for this thing. The muppets were to be a much bigger draw than that. One look at the line for them in DCA shows what they EXPECT to happen for the show. They couldn't do that on Main Street. In hindsight, of course, it's easy to say "well, they could have." But while designing the thing, they have to take all this stuff into account. You can't spend millions and end up with a disaster at the entrance to your park, on your parade route, and in your main shopping area.
Originally Posted By SoThisIsLove <<SoThisIsLove, thank you also for posting that link. RU42 has always been my favorite videographer on YouTube and I love viewing his Disney clips. Here's his home page with links to all 56 of his clips. They're well worth watching. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/user/ru42?ob=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/user/ru 42?ob=1</a> Shiva, thanks very much for that home page link! Disneyland, here I come! (Even if it's only online....)
Originally Posted By Shiva ^^ SoThisIsLove, Hope you enjoy them as much as I do. he's actually a professional videographer and the quality of his videos sure supports that...and you can tell, he's one of us : )
Originally Posted By monorail91 I think it's an ok idea, but I've always felt that Small World is one of those truly original DL ideas, without any ties to movies, like HM and POTC (pre-2006).
Originally Posted By FerretAfros "One look at the line for them in DCA shows what they EXPECT to happen for the show." You still need to take park capacity into consideration here. When DCA opened there weren't that many things to soak up the crowds. Just like when Muppets opened in MGM there just weren't all that many things to do. People would feel somewhat 'cheated' if they didn't get just about everything in, and they were willing to wait in lines to do things. With Disneyland, I just don't see that being the case. If Muppets had a long line, why wait there when you could go see Captian EO, Space Mountain, or Pirates. The wide variety of options in the park would have helped spread the crowds around. Sure, you will always have problems with getting everybody on in a day (I'm sure this even happened in the early days of POTC), but there were enough other things in DL that they wouldn't be too upset about missing one movie. I also suspect that the lines would have leveled off pretty quickly, and they would have seen this from what was going on in MGM. For the first month the new car smell would attract everybody (remember the 45 minute waits for Monsters Inc that first Christmas it was open?), but it would die off pretty quickly. If they needed to, I'm sure they could snake a switchback queue up Main Street in the approximate area that the pool was a couple years ago. Sure, they would need to stop running the vehicles, but they do that on busy days anyway. I don't think many people would be too upset about losing them for a month or two. It just seems entirely rediculous to me to think that there isn't any room on Main Street for a long queue, because that's where they end up routing every long queue in the park (Indy, EO, Splash, Big Thunder?). It wouldn't be the idea situation, sure, but if they really wanted it there, they wouldn't have let this stop them.
Originally Posted By jonvn "You still need to take park capacity into consideration here." Yes, but you have to realize that they still can't have this vital area clogged up at all. Even going along with what you are suggesting, that the show would start waning quickly, the area would still be clogged for months. And on busy days, it would always be clogged. And during a parade? People trying to get in? Just not workable. And yes, on busy days the vehicles are closed. But then you'd have this line snaking through the street? What will that do to walking in the area? Trying to get from one side to the other? Again, not workable. For a day or two, maybe. But permanently? It would have been a nightmare. "but if they really wanted it there, they wouldn't have let this stop them." But it did. And the reason it did is while you CAN do all these things you suggest, it makes overall park operation of this area extremely difficult and affects some very vital functions of the park. It wasn't going to happen.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros "And during a parade? People trying to get in?" They don't seem to have a problem closing Storybookland twice daily for a parde. Also, this was a time when they were just getting into the business of big parades. I don't think people would have been too disgruntled about not having a parade for a while, especially if they timed the attraction opening well (not peak time). "Again, not workable. For a day or two, maybe. But permanently? It would have been a nightmare." It wouldn't have been permanent. We all know that attraction lines die down once the newness has worn off. For some attractions like Indy and Splash, it took a couple years to get down to reasonable waits. For others like Captain EO and Star Tours (which I think are much more comparable to a Muppet movie) it took much less time. They would have known that there wouldn't be 4 hour waits for this thing permanently. "Trying to get from one side to the other?" They managed to do it during the summer a couple years ago when the put the pool there. If they were smart (which I'm sure they are), they would have opened the attraction in a less busy time to allow crowds to materialize for the movie before the park became really crowded. "It wasn't going to happen." Not with that attitude. : )
Originally Posted By Shiva >>I think it's an ok idea, but I've always felt that Small World is one of those truly original DL ideas<< actually Pepsi Cola paid Walt to create it for the 64-65 World's fair and then he got it back for free. Walt and Pespi worked out a million dollar deal for Pepsi to be associated with the Disney name and Walt let them deduct moving costs from that million to transport IASW back to DL. Walt was good!
Originally Posted By jonvn "They don't seem to have a problem closing Storybookland twice daily for a " Storybookland has its own line area. They simply need to close that off. The line area for this would be out on the sidewalk. "I don't think people would have been too disgruntled about not having a parade for a while, especially if they timed the attraction opening well (not peak time)." You don't think? You better KNOW. You've got thousands of people coming in, the place is jammed, and there is no parade like there always is? Because this one ride is blocking the parade area? No. "It wouldn't have been permanent." Unless this show started pulling in very low numbers, then it basically would be. As long as you had more than one theater full of people at a time, they would line up outside the building. On busy days, the line would have to be routed down the street, backstage into the parade float area, or in some other disruptive manner. That wasn't going to happen. How many days was the pool there? And how many days has it been since 1991? You can't put stuff in like that. It is totally impractical.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros "You don't think? You better KNOW" Well, you never KNOW until after it's built. They thought that TL98 was going to be a success. They thought that the Rocket Rods were going to be reliable. They thought that Fantasmic! would be a success even though it shuts down half of the park every single night. They thought that Light Magic would enchant people. They thought that it was a good decision to build DCA as it was. They thought it would be alright to force thousands of people into the hub to get the best view of the fireworks. They thought it was a good idea to put the stoppers on the Bug's Life float. They think that it's a good idea to build Toy Story Midway Mania. You just don't ever know until something opens. I don't know and they didn't either. There is no reason that they would know what would happen without a crystal ball, and to my knowledge the Witches of Morva aren't going to help WDI until they get their own attraction. I don't know. I'm a fan. I enjoy the parks, and have a decent idea of how things are run. I don't control things, but the people who do also don't have the clearest of views of what MIGHT happen. They just don't know if it will be a smashing success or just a moderate one or a total failure. They just have to wait and see. They can be prepared for the worst crowds, and that's about the best they can really do to get ready for things. "Storybookland has its own line area. They simply need to close that off." And what would the inside lobby be? Just a quick run-through before people get in the theater, similar to the Roger Rabbit queue in the early FastPass days? I have a very hard time believing that they would only be able to fit one show's worth of people inside, and I'm sure there would be plenty of space out front on the sidewalks to put people. Heck, if worst came to worst, they could always move the queue outside the front entrance, and have everybody go through the turnstyles again before getting on the ride. It wouldn't be ideal, but there are ways around the supposed dead end of not having enough space. There was absolutely no space in Adventureland for anything, yet they managed to squeeze Indiana Jones in there. The folks at WDI are supposed to be creative, and that applies to problem solving too. "Because this one ride is blocking the parade area?" They could always, God forbid, alter the parade route so it didn't go around Town Square, and just turned straight up Main Street. They could let the Muppet line run rampant all over town square (which I really don't think would happen), and still have a parade. There are ways around the issue. Stopping production on it solely because there wasn't enough queue space is just plain taking the lazy way out. There are plenty of creative solutions to the problem, some of which I've outlined here, and many more that I'm sure people more familiar with the project could come up with. "Unless this show started pulling in very low numbers, then it basically would be" When was the last time you saw more than one theater's worth of people waiting at either MGM or DCA? I suspect it was a very long time ago. Sure, we can say that they didn't know this, but by this point Captain EO (arguably the most popular 3D movie attraction ever created) had withered down to basically no line at all. They can't for a second think that a franchise that hadn't really made anything of substance in the last decade would suddenly pull in huge numbers of people for years to come. That's just silly. It would be like a fear of a Hunchback attraction creating too big of lines these days. Sure, it was popular, but it was sort of past its prime by the time they got to talking about it in DL. "How many days was the pool there?" I believe it was there for about a week all together (7ish days) from the time they started construction until it was completely gone. It was also during summer (I think it was August) with huge crowds. "And how many days has it been since 1991?" 4466, but I don't see why this is relevant at all. "You can't put stuff in like that. It is totally impractical." Never stopped Walt. It's rediculously impractical to pay the extra money for themed facades on buildings when you could get the warehouse motif for a fraction of the cost. There's no reason to encase your roller coaster in a recreation of a real mountain, but that didn't stop him. There's no reason for a movie company to build an amusement park, but we all see what happened. Just because it's not logical or the easiest solution doesn't mean that it isn't the best way to do it for the park.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Well, you never KNOW until after it's built" The problem with that is you have to build the thing, and it is at that point you have to know. "And what would the inside lobby be? " Enough space for one single show. In the meantime, you'd have to shut down this theater for every single parade or event ahead of time enough to clear whatever line happens to have formed. It's simply not practical. All these suggestions you keep making are also not practical. Every time you make one, it has incredible limitations, and ignores all the other problesms I have already pointed out. You can keep going to corner cases if you want, but the basic idea is already laid out. Nothing with a large audience can be built there because there is no room for the line as I have already laid out several times now. And you keep repeating things I've already answered, such as: "When was the last time you saw more than one theater's worth of people waiting at either MGM or DCA? " For which the answer is: when they were building the attraction, they can't know this, and did not know this, and therefore had to plan for the thing to be busy. You can't go build the thing someplace, determine how busy it is going to be there, and then rebuild. You have to build it properly the first time through. All these things you keep bringing up are repeats of this. You keep saying but it is not busy, well, that's all well and good, but at the time, they could not know that, and there was no provision possible for a busy show. So they were not able to build it. Comprende?
Originally Posted By Skellington88 Isnt it funny how twenty years ago the company was looking at ways to replace original attractions (lincoln) with charecter tie-ins (the muppets!)
Originally Posted By FerretAfros I guess I'm sort of going about this the wrong way. My point isn't that there is no room for permanent long line. I agree with you that the solutions I've suggested are not ideal and would only work as a tempory thing. What does seem to stick out though is that it just wasn't going to be an extremely popular attraction. I think we've already established that they wouldn't know if it would be a runaway hit or not. From what I've gathered, this one would open after the MGM one, so they would have a general idea of the crowds. I also think that they had enough experience at that point with film-based attractions to know generally how popular it would be. They knew that they were popular for a bit, but leveled out pretty quickly, and then began rapidly dropping to nothing. They could have used this knowledge to guess how long the lines would end up, and where they would max out (remember the discussions about the Nemo line maxing out at 4 hours and taking over small world mall?). I really don't think for a second that it would generate a really long line (see also: Nemo) for very long. Sure, people would enjoy it, but DL was coming off of recent additions like Star Tours and Splash Mountain, both of which have a lot more draw to them than a 3D movie. Those were big E-ticket attractions. Even Captain EO at the time really pushed the bar for what people expected from 3D movies. Muppets, while a nice attraction, didn't really push anything very far (the walls were about the biggest "breakthrough"-pun not intended-in the attraction) and really wouldn't generate the same draw as EO, which only had rediculously long lines for the very beginning of its run. I also have a very very hard time believing that the lobby would only hold enough folks for one show. The lobby area seems to be at least the same size as the theater (it's not a huge theater), and would also gain more space by removing the offices and artifacts. Given that people take up a ton more room seated in a theater than they would standing in line, I would guess (there's that word again!) that the lobby could hold at the very least 2 shows worth of people. Again, it's not that I don't see the need for queue space, I just don't think that they would have needed that much of it after the initial rush that every attraction gets, and I would hope that even though every designer wants their product to be immensly popular, the folks at WDI would have enough sense to see that movies just don't create very long lines long term.
