Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Warts and wrinkles were certainly less prominent and, imo, were more tolerable considering they were occuring while Disney was building Space Mountains, EPCOT Centers and Grand Floridians.>> And in recent years they have been building Expedition Everest, Animal Kingdom and Animal Kingdom Lodge. All of these are of the same quality as the things mentioned by ChiMike. My first visit to WDW was in 1991 and I think many things have been improved since then. Besides the addition of one of the best Disney parks anywhere, I have seen other improvements. Overall, especially with the addition of Soarin', Epcot is more fun today than it was in 1991. And I LOVED it in 1991. The food served, both in the parks and the hotels, has improved considerably. FASTPASS, I know it has its detractors and probably doesn't work well at DL, but at WDW I consider its availability a big improvement. The fireworks shows at both the MK and Epcot are better than they were in 1991. The addition of Fantasmic was fantastic!! Tower of Terror and the Rock and Rollercoaster. Need I say more? Vastly improved "Wilderness Cabins" at Fort Wilderness. I could go on, but you get the idea. On the other hand, I readily recognize places where the quality at WDW has decreased. Main Street in particular and all MK areas in general have nowhere near the diversity of merchandise that they use to have. In our first years visiting WDW we spent a fair amount of time and money shopping at the MK. Now I can’t remember the last time we bought something there. Now we are spending more than we used to shopping, but it is at Epcot or The Art of Disney; not the MK. Cleanliness of restrooms has gone WAY down. The cleanliness of the WDW restrooms made a huge impression on us during our first few trips to Disney. Now we worry about finding a clean one. The Ticket and Transportation Center used to be, well a Ticket and Transportation Center. Now it is a boat dock and a monorail station. You used to be able to get anywhere from the TTC. Now you have to make transfers at Downtown Disney which takes a LOT longer. Of course it also provides a shopping opportunity. Do you think that had anything to do with the decision? The guide books used to be, well Guide Books. After we returned from our first trip to WDW I spent hours and hours pouring through the Guidebooks reliving the memories. The Guide Brochures currently used are of no use once you exit the park and of very little use in it. So I recognize that some things have gone downhill. I also recognize. Those who see no bad at WDW are wearing rose colored glasses. Those who see no good at WDW are wearing blinders. The truth is somewhere in the middle. Overall, despite its faults, I think the WDW of today is more enjoyable than the WDW of 1991.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip ^^^ The final part of the above post should be: "So I recognize that some things have gone downhill. I also recognize that some things are better. Those who see no bad at WDW are wearing rose colored glasses. Those who see no good at WDW are wearing blinders. The truth is somewhere in the middle. Overall, despite its faults, I think the WDW of today is more enjoyable than the WDW of 1991." I have no idea how "that some things are better" dropped out of my post. I’m sure the Spirit would declare it a Freudian slip. ;-)
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <>>I have never met either (I consider that my loss for the knowledge I could take in)>> Brown-nose much?> Ignorant much ?
Originally Posted By vbdad55 ^^^^^^^^ see a perfect example ofthe type of behavior driving people from wanting to post here a lot any more. Like them or hate them they have a lot of Disney knowledge one can learn from. I would also like to spenda few days with the Marty Sklar's of the world, and other imaginears that have been around for a while - increasing one's knowledge is never a bad thing. But in today's world I guess it is called brown nosing - just amazing. I didn't realize you already knew everything in the world leobloom. I bow to your mighty brain - ;-( When you actually have something interesting to post - maybe I'll give a rat's behind.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>ORDDU: So nice to see you around again, ChiMike, duckling! My sisters and I have long admired you and your comments within the Lauhing Place Pond. Keep up the good fight. You have much support in Morva--as do so many others around here who know how to stand up for a higher quality product.<< Thanks ORDDU! That's an awfully nice of thing to say. It especially means alot considering it is from such wise & weathered witches.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>But for those who have the time and money... get on a plane and see Disney at its finest in Anaheim, Paris and especially in Tokyo. I'm not saying this is you(since I don't know which Disney resorts you have seen or haven't seen) but, I do notice a correlation around here: the ones who defend WDW the most tend to be the least **Disney** traveled folk and the ones who offer up the most stern ctiticisms of WDW tend to be more cosmopolitan bunch<< And to take it a step further barboy, some (like myself) have taken a track-record of 30 years of WDW spending and have diverted future spending to Anaheim and overseas. I think people are finally becoming aware that these are Disney parks overseas and not some intimidating, unknown destination. I see much more travel than say 10 years ago and I believe little-by-little that this effect will further the view that leaders in Orlando have tried to exploit Disney's past quality contributions at WDW for nothing but a short-term agenda.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >><<Warts and wrinkles were certainly less prominent and, imo, were more tolerable considering they were occuring while Disney was building Space Mountains, EPCOT Centers and Grand Floridians.>> And in recent years they have been building Expedition Everest, Animal Kingdom and Animal Kingdom Lodge. All of these are of the same quality as the things mentioned by ChiMike.<< "recent years" To be exact, Animal Kingdom was designed with CapX spending approvals in the mid-90's. AKL late 90's. That's 10 years now. And it's still nothing in comparison to EPCOT's design, funding and construction history. Nor is it comparable to Eisner's building boom from 1985-1993. So, I do not think it is comparable. Certainly not to what has happened since 2000. Everest is the standout? Maybe, there were a lot of corners cut in areas and the resulting affect can be debated. In 1975 some of those cuts would have been taboo, and I have a hard time excusing them 30 years later. I would say the massive increases in the "warts and wrinkles" present over the last 8 years have been offset by less in that period than any other 8 year period.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>The food served, both in the parks and the hotels, has improved considerably.<< In the last 6 years dining quality has taken a nose-dive. While there are more facilities (some high-end) than in 1991, today's food selection and quality in a location by location basis might be worse than in 1991. You didn't regularly attend WDW since 1991 have you?
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>FASTPASS, I know it has its detractors and probably doesn't work well at DL, but at WDW I consider its availability a big improvement.<< Wait until they rollout the handhelds. Wait until DVC guests have to pay extra to have the FP booking advantage that the deluxe resort guests get. Then we will see many folks' tune change.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<You didn't regularly attend WDW since 1991 have you?>> I have attended at least once a year since 1995, many years twice a year. I don't think quality has taken a nose dive in the past six years. I think availability has taken a nose dive since they came out with the idiotic DDP, but so far the quality seems at least as good. We usually visit during January or February, so perhaps they do better when they aren't rushed.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Everest is the standout? Maybe, there were a lot of corners cut in areas and the resulting affect can be debated. In 1975 some of those cuts would have been taboo, and I have a hard time excusing them 30 years later.>> Space Mountain is a mad mouse in the dark. I think that Expedition Everest is AT LEAST equal to that in quality and innovation. Maybe they cut some corners here and there but the end result is still a darned fine attraction... probably the best new WDW attraction since Tower of Terror.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>I have attended at least once a year since 1995, many years twice a year. I don't think quality has taken a nose dive in the past six years. I think availability has taken a nose dive since they came out with the idiotic DDP, but so far the quality seems at least as good. We usually visit during January or February, so perhaps they do better when they aren't rushed.<< Good to know, and I agree there might be inconsistencies between low time and high time. But even that is a violation of what made Disney, Disney.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Wait until they rollout the handhelds. Wait until DVC guests have to pay extra to have the FP booking advantage that the deluxe resort guests get. Then we will see many folks' tune change.>> Can't wait that long. I'll be dead by then. By the way... is your comment based on anything other than pure speculation on your part?
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Space Mountain is a mad mouse in the dark. I think that Expedition Everest is AT LEAST equal to that in quality and innovation. Maybe they cut some corners here and there but the end result is still a darned fine attraction... probably the best new WDW attraction since Tower of Terror.<< I concur that the level of detail is very good with Everest and surpasses Space Mountain. However I would disagree that it is okay to do 85% of the job with what resources are available in 2005 vs. the same scenario in 1975 and attempting to do 100%. Space Mountain is not a mouse coaster. Nothing close, in fact. It is a full size Arrow rollercoaster that in terms of 1975 was one of the largest coasters built. The track base, trains, and layouts evolved with the time. In the late 70s both Space Mountains were what ANY coaster rider could talk about or compare other coasters to. Not just enthusiasts, but everyday riders. It was the gold standard. Everest's actual ride system, meh, not as much.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Can't wait that long. I'll be dead by then. By the way... is your comment based on anything other than pure speculation on your part?<< No. And it's inline with what I argued a year ago until I was blue in the face. In your and my lifetime THERE WILL BE a tiered FP system and it WILL discriminate based on accomodation. And as much as the billboards or dvds might say it, DVC owners are certainly not at any top tier. It's a much longer played out scenario of the drug dealer giving your first taste for free. I have hated FP since day 1 when they were testing it on Space Mountain/WDW Easter week. Anyone who is so wrapped up into their own personal FP benefits as not to see what the system HAS done on a macro level and what it WILL do is following the same short-term thinking that WDP&R has with their projects.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>The track base, trains, and layouts evolved with the time. << The industry's ...... .... which make Space Mountain look rinky-dink.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip << The track base, trains, and layouts evolved with the time. In the late 70s both Space Mountains were what ANY coaster rider could talk about or compare other coasters to. Not just enthusiasts, but everyday riders. It was the gold standard.>> Had I ridden it in the late 70's I may have been more impressed. I did not ride it until 1991, and at that time I found it lacking. The queue. Not that great, but did at least convey kind of a "future feel" and made you curious about what might be coming. The load area. Very good. The mission control area, the TV presentation, even the floating chocolate chip cookies were all very cool. The launch. Absolutely outstanding. I thought I was in for the greatest experience of my life. The ride. After all the lead-up it was a huge disappointment. It seemed to me to be a Mad Mouse in the dark. Perhaps a very well designed and long-tracked Mad Mouse, but a Mad Mouse just the same. Somehow I thought "Space Mountain" might actually convey an impression of being in space, as crazy as that may seem.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Spirit, Just make me a little more ill than I already am reading this stuff....People begging you and TDL to come back...>> Now Ken, don't go off and get sick. There are people I'd like to see ill, and you're not even the top 100,000 ... so, please see a doctor! <<But please, and I am serious, can you explain that last part of the post above directed at me? The bit about TDL and something to do with his worldwide park experience...I really have to say I don't get what you said....>> That was in response to your post, but not really aimed at you in general. The statement was simply that many people here abused TDLFAN because they resented his knowledge and experience, which came with a blunt (although often tongue-in-cheek to be sure) tone. I'll say it again, no one on this or any Disney site I've come across has the sheer knowledge and experience as far as Disney's foreign parks that TDLFAN does. <<Don't get me wrong in all of this...I am just so tired of having to read how one person can simply say to others they shouldn't bother visiting Disney in Florida....The place is far from perfect but yet you have to admit there aren't many other places you could go to and get that kind of fun for a day...But these socalled online critiques makes it sound like the place is just pure trash and no one should waste their time visiting.>> No one especially not TDLFAN or myself EVER said WDW was trash or that people shouldn't visit. This is the old putting words in others mouths. What often was stated was the way WDW had been dumbed down and allowed to get stale due to neglect and greedy management. And that the MK didn't/doesn't matchup with its counterparts. That isn't the same as saying it is trash or not worth visiting. I'll just ignore your Walmart comment and hope bad things happen to that company.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<But for those who have the time and money... get on a plane and see Disney at its finest in Anaheim, Paris and especially in Tokyo.>> YES, YES and YES! <<I'm not saying this is you(since I don't know which Disney resorts you have seen or haven't seen) but, I do notice a correlation around here: the ones who defend WDW the most tend to be the least **Disney** traveled folk and the ones who offer up the most stern ctiticisms of WDW tend to be more cosmopolitan bunch>> Bingo! And I'd go one-step further. That most who take the WDW criticism so personally are not just the least 'Disney' traveled, but less traveled period (but nationally and internationally). It's amazing how for many people a vacation is 10 days every July at Disney's Boardwalk ... and nothing else.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Why is it anyone who says TDLFAN or Spirit are very knowledgeable and have every right to express their opinion become their 'defenders' ?>> I'd like to have minions. I've heard Lutz has them. I want 'em. <<I have never met either (I consider that my loss for the knowledge I could take in ) - yet I think they have every right to say what they feel here and I would expect them to be no different in person. >> I am much better looking in person. And I do hope to enjoy a meal with you at the California Grill one of these days!
