Originally Posted By bayrr326 Yes, people who go more often will more than likely notice any deterioration than others. However, my family goes about every 2 years and my mom has commented about things not being as good as they used to be and they haven't been in 3 years because they feel the place had stagnated the last time they were there.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 I think a lot of people ... diehard Disney fans ... good people ... intelligent, passionate people are frustrated not because WDI can't still do amazing work. no, the frustration comes from the fact WDI isn't run in a smart way from either financial or creative standpoints and it shows worst of all at WDW since that is the cash-cow mass-market resort. And when you see people, good people like Marty Sklar and Dave Smith (OK, let's just say Marty) USE sites like this to attack fans for justifiable criticism well ... do you think it's because the heat is on them? Do you think they realize that empty black descent tunnels with lame touch screens that haven't worked on 5 of 6 rides I've taken on SSE over the past three months along with throwing toons everywhere like Small World eventually are going to need fallguys/gals? I think Bob Iger is finally starting to wake up and realize maybe the 'purists' have a point (or quite a few) and maybe a housecleaning really is in order in Burbank ... and it is so telling that guys like Marty and Dave are basically telling the fans off, and throwing certain Imagineers under the bus of fan opinion, while covering for others they have more of a personal fondness for. I really think the day can't come soon enough when there's a fresh perspective at WDI. Maybe it's coming sooner than people here think. If I keep reading condescending letters from folks like Marty and Dave, I'll know there's hope for the good guys.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Trippy - one has to wonder what Disney did to breed such contempt. >> Simple. They stopped adhering to their own standards ... the ones they conditioned people like me to expect over decades. They did it. Made me a passionate, high-spending, Disney loving fan for life ... and then they broke the model and they think I'm going to dumb myself down like they have. Not happening. <<Honestly, i dont think it's unjustified. If Disney has made people angry enough for them to tell other people not to goto WDW, it's just the same if they had done things right and the word of mouth was spreading positively. >> While I have mostly all positives to post (if I decide to) regarding my time at Epcot this week and some very positive things to say about Aquatica (if I decide to write a report on the newest park in O-Town and one you should visit!), I really wish all those people who say they never notice how dirty the MK is to have been with me last night when EVERY (ok, maybe only 8 out of 10) trashcans were overflowning onto the ground and trash was everywhere and the park was generally just filthy ...I'm sure I just imagined it. You know I can overlook a little something here and there ... a park that looks like an NFL stadium parking lot postgame just should never happen. But they're going to open a boutique park with three CMs to every guest ratio ... sure ... yeah, gonna happen ... actually, apparently it just may not happen because it seems that Disney just can't believe how negative the fans have been since the story has leaked and ... nah, no more right now, I've said enough.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<I know you guys are just so much more knowledgeable and sophisticated than I am, but I think you actually like raining on other people's parade. The one thing I would do for a first timer is hand them a Birnbaum's and tell them to stay the hell off the internet.>> You know what? If people are that impressionable ... stupid would be the word I'd use to describe them ... then yeah they should never read any discussion board, they should never read any travel forum, any hotel, restaurant or movie reviews, they should never read any editorials, they should never listen to a sermon at church or a political speech ... I mean, where does it end? When do people take a shred of responsibility for their lives and their own feelings? If someone wants to go to WDW, they should. I'd tell anyone they should. But it seems that many here would like to see them go into their visits ignorant UNLESS the opinions are all magical. That's just a crock. OK. Take responsibility for yourselves. If the fact that an Internet poster -- even someone as fair and as knowledgable and as blunt as this Spirit -- says the MK is pale shadow of its former self is enough to make you cancel a dream vacation my advice (since you're so impressionable) would be to not go, but instead go straight to a very good shrink and look into why you need validation from strangers. Crazy.
Originally Posted By kennect Spirit, I would love to make a comment on that above post very much in agreement with you in a really weird twisted way...But I won't...But I will say this...I truly want to throw up every time I go the local grocery and see some kid dressed up in a princess outfit...Now to me that is a real reason to have a beef with Disney...These days for me, what I call Modern Disney just doesn't hold the charm of what I think of as Classic Disney...With that I mean Disney long before any park was ever thought of....
Originally Posted By mousermerf There are people who dress their kids up to goto the grocery store...? Then again, i was amazed at the amount of Disney-themed stuff one can find at a grocery store in the middle of nowhere middle america. At home, closer to WDW, it's nearly non-existent. You goto Disney to get your Disney. Oh, Spirit - you'll be happy to know that despite the grand opening, Disney (and Siemens) are pushing the "it's not finished" aspect of SSE publicly now. They're sugar coating it in a more-amazing-stuff-to-come sort of way, but they're trying to make sure the public knows that's not all there is.
Originally Posted By -em >>The gap between Disney and the others is narrowing, and I don't like it. Disney has always been head and shoulders above the rest, but now it's maybe nose up. That to me is awful for an obsessive, compulsive life long fan.<< Exactly... In the past week or so Ive been reading alot about disney history and its made alot of things much more evident about the way it "was" and the way it "is". The way it "is" is yes a way to make money, but thats it and when it all ends all there is is the money with no quality product or purpose in the end. To be truely successful you need to think of the money as a happy biproduct of giving people an experiance of a lifetime. Its sad when people like me who wanted to make a difference and quite frankly was good at what I did, am now looking to other companies to achive that goal. -em
Originally Posted By danyoung >If people are that impressionable ... stupid would be the word I'd use to describe them ... then yeah they should never read any discussion board, they should never read any travel forum, any hotel, restaurant or movie reviews, they should never read any editorials, they should never listen to a sermon at church or a political speech...< Spirit, my friend, there's a basic problem with this logic. You, me, and everyone who posts to these boards does so with the desire that people will believe what we say, that we can influence the thought processes of others, whether that be to inspire agreement or to inspire dispute which will hopefully result in concensus. I just don't understand how someone can tell people how awful the MK is, and then be surprised when someone else shows hesitation in visiting that park. You just can't have it both ways. If you (not necessarily you, Spirit, but a generic YOU) make strong statements, and then show surprise when someone believes them, it just seems disingenuous to me. I'm well aware of the problems at the MK, and within Disney as a whole. And I enjoy discussing them. But if I found out (as has happened from time to time) that someone reads my negativity and starts to second guess their next vacation, well I feel it's my responsibility to shout loudly and clearly that I was in no way suggesting that people don't visit the World. I'd never suggest that the person was stupid for believing something I said.
Originally Posted By Mickeymouseclub Keep in mind the power of the "Locals" to keep people away from DCA...Sometimes I think Corporate Disney is stunned and shocked at the amount of money Hannah Montana and High School Musical has made. They think anything will make money. Just try it all. They are not worried. The mass market is not you or me.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >><No message board is going to force their hand in spending that money with a negative predisposition.> I'm afraid I have to counter that with personal experience. About 10 years or so ago, as I was just getting into this online Disney thing, I was also planning a trip to DL. After reading many of Al Lutz's columns as well as other posts around the web, I was really feeling sad that DL, the place I loved since I was a kid, had fallen so far into disrepair. I was fully expecting to go through the gates and see that Six Flags quality had taken over, cuz that's what everyone on the web was saying. But I went anyway, and you can guess what I found. Main Street was sparkling, the music was exactly as I remembered, the rides were wonderful, and the overall experience was a total thrill for me.<< Dan, But that is different. My understaining of the original issue was that negative povs caused 1st timers to not want to "try" Disney Parks, Where Dreams Come True. Whether that be just WDW or any Disney park. That people would miss out on what is great about a 1st trip because the negative comments scared them. In your case you had been to DL before and had a history at WDW. I don't see that as the same thing. At that time, when Al was complaining about the impact of resort construction on DL, the Tomorrowland debacle, or the on-again-off-again nonsense with the lead system, or simply burned out lightbulbs, all of those things, imo, would be easily considered by someone with a background going to WDW.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >> think a lot of people ... diehard Disney fans ... good people ... intelligent, passionate people are frustrated not because WDI can't still do amazing work. no, the frustration comes from the fact WDI isn't run in a smart way from either financial or creative standpoints and it shows worst of all at WDW since that is the cash-cow mass-market resort.<< And.... WDI was never ran in a smart way financially. It was always considered a quasi-loss leader in the grand scheme of things. The problem is two-fold now. 1) There is gross excess spending made. Money that never impacts the actual project, but rather is expensed and billed to the project for lunches, do-nothing consultants, travel, "research", etc.; something akin to working at a law firm rather than an ecentric workshop. 2) With larger budgets than historically necessary and with the freedom to outsource more they have become LESS of an ecentric workshop and have contributed LESS to the long-term asset value of WDP&R >>And when you see people, good people like Marty Sklar and Dave Smith (OK, let's just say Marty) USE sites like this to attack fans for justifiable criticism well ... do you think it's because the heat is on them?<< Marty has been protecting his job for a long time. Most notably with DCA and SaveDisney. He sold out a long time ago and it is no secret that other "Disney Legends" didn't quite see eye to eye with his "annoited walt-driven know-how" Once a PR guy, always a PR guy. The guy is a great guy, make no mistake, but he certainly had a hand in the eventual negative culture within WDI.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Simple. They stopped adhering to their own standards ... the ones they conditioned people like me to expect over decades. They did it. Made me a passionate, high-spending, Disney loving fan for life ... and then they broke the model and they think I'm going to dumb myself down like they have. Not happening.<< Very well said.
Originally Posted By danyoung >My understaining of the original issue was that negative povs caused 1st timers to not want to "try" Disney Parks, Where Dreams Come True. Whether that be just WDW or any Disney park. That people would miss out on what is great about a 1st trip because the negative comments scared them.< The only point I was trying to make was that intelligent people (like me?) can indeed be influenced by online writings from people who appear to be credible. And if I was influenced by Al's writings, me, an experienced park stormer, imagine how much more someone who's never been could be influenced.
Originally Posted By ChiMike No question Dan. And that's the nature of opinion, truth, freedom of speech, yada yada. Which brings us back to the original points. A) Disney directly or indirectly caused this 'contempt'. I typically pin it on (marco-level) their past executive team being consumed with short-term results. A focus that brought with it long-term effects. B) The concern on this and another thread that lp.com might unneccessarily display that contempt/love in an overly-dramatic way where as to deprive a 1st time Disney guest of a virginial trip to the theme park alter.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "<<So from now on I will ignore Florida for a while, and I try to encourage others to do likewise.>> This is an example of what kennect was talking about. To express your own disappointment with WDW is one thing. To try to encourage others to stay away is a very different animal. I think it does a great disservice to those who are thinking about going for the first time and come to a place like LP for information." Here's a baseball analogy. I grew up in Chicago. I now live in Long Beach. I've rooted for the Cubs ever since I can remember. I'm 50 now, and the first time I was able to see a game at Wrigley was 1968. No sense going over the often hapless play of the Cubs here, but suffice to say, they're my team and I could not care less what anyone says about the futility of it all. Moreover, Wrigley was in much better shape in 1968 than it is today, and there are much newer, nicer ballparks now, but I'll be damned if there's a better place to see a game, whether the Cubs are in first or last. Sandy Koufax stood in the same exact spot Ted Lilly does today on the mound. Kosuke Fukudome is in the same batter's box Babe Ruth was when Ruth either called or didn't call his shot in 1932. Great-grandfather, grandfathers, fathers and sons have all attended games there and sat in the same seats. There's much more at stake going to Wrigley to see a game just like there's more at stake for some to go to a Disney park of their choosing. No matter how the Cubs are doing, I'd rather fly to Chicago from Long Beach to take in some games than drive 20 minutes to Anaheim to see the Angels, who are usually a better team. And there's nothing anyone can say who thinks they know more about such things than I do, that will sway my opinion on the matter.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<And there's nothing anyone can say who thinks they know more about such things than I do, that will sway my opinion on the matter.>> Yes. Because you've been there. You already know how you feel about the place. My point is that posts as negative as some on LP could decrease a person's anticipation about their trip. They may still go, but for many people it just won't be the same. Now they are going with doubt in their mind, wondering if it will be worth all of the money they've spent. Some of the magic is gone before they even walk through the front gates. And remember, I wasn't responding to people posting negative opinions. I was responding to some one who admitted to actively trying to discourage people from going to WDW. <<So from now on I will ignore Florida for a while, and I try to encourage others to do likewise.>>
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "And remember, I wasn't responding to people posting negative opinions. I was responding to some one who admitted to actively trying to discourage people from going to WDW." This is what I was trying to address. Someone who is trying to decide between Wrigley and say, U.S. Cellular for a Sox game will hear how old and decrepit Wrigley is versus how much newer the Jail is, as well as how the Sox won the Series in 2005 yet the Cubs are on working on a 100 year dry spell. I wouldn't discourage someone from going to either place (Sox bias aside), but I would never actively try and prevent someone from experiencing Wrigley, no matter how old it is, especially if they've never been and have indicated an interest to go. Or even the Cell/Jail. Who am I to presume to do such a thing?
Originally Posted By danyoung >Some of the magic is gone before they even walk through the front gates.< Exactly! A lot of people who don't frequent these types of forums don't realize how freakin' huge a grain of salt they have to choke down to be able to properly participate in the discussions. In my personal example, I really did think the magic of DL was going to be visibly diminished. Imagine my surprise and delight to find the same great place that I had always loved, albeit missing a few lightbulbs here and there. Do I wish Disney was being more proactive in changing light bulbs? Of course. Will I let their current practices ruin my vacation? No way.
