Originally Posted By jonvn "Just curious why are you guys getting so upset over Al's comment?" Becaues it's insulting, and causes a lot of anger and hostility among people, and he does it for his own benefit. He's not a fan of this stuff. He's a fan of Al, and has managed to luck into something that lets people think he knows about this stuff, when he really does not. Bye "shelved" he means cancelled, btw. Until it's no longer, then he will claim he said it all along. That's one reason why people get annoyed with him. "did jonvn just tell us that he invented the Internet?" No, but I did write software that allowed the campii of the state university system to communicate with each other prior to widespread use of it.
Originally Posted By jonvn BTW, thanks for the kind words from ArchMig. I know he's a really true dedicated fan of this stuff, even though we don't agree on some things (what two people can). He's done A LOT for the real fans of Disney and Disney history that most people aren't even aware of. I feel sad that so much damage has been done to the online community because of the actions of some people such as Al. I really do. And I also feel sad to see Disney not doing the things they used to do. I guess that's just the way of the world.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo jonvn - all I can say is I truly agree. I remember when virtually everything Disney did was truly awesome. A time when the resorts competed with themselves rather than saying "hey, we're still a notch ahead of 6 Flags). I also remember when the web had some rally good inside information about up coming developments. Sadly those days are over due to the negative behaviours. See...you've only gone and made me all nostalgiac!!!
Originally Posted By jonvn Disney used to be a boutique company, really. It was very small. When the cap cities deal came along, it became very very large. When that sort of thing happens, companies change. They change who they are, how they do things. I don't think that aquisitions ever really work out well for anyone involved, unless it is to purchase something to shut it down. Eisner had a great reign, but what happens a lot is that when you are very successful at something, you want to keep doing the same things you have been because it has worked so well. So, when that no longer was really fully possible with the new large company, it seems he did just that and tried to keep running things the same way. This doesn't work, beacause it's just too big. It leaves the various areas in the corporation a bit on the rudderless side, as the guy on top can't pay attention, and the decisions have to be made by underlings who are trying to implement policy and have to just sort of do what they think is what is the right thing. So his last few years were not as great for him as the earlier years. It's not that Eisner got "greedy." That is really just stupid. Now they're a big corporation and no one is actually helming the place with any sort of mission or goal other than to keep it running. Iger, I suppose, will do a reasonable job, as he already has, but that's it. It's not the same sort of place it was before, so it really isn't going to be very likely that we will get the same sort of offerings. They'll be watered and dumbed down, and run through the corporate ringer. That's exactly what is being produced there now. "Sadly those days are over due to the negative behaviours." It is really unfortunate. When you have someone who has for years determinedly worked to divide up the community into people who think like he does, and the rest who are bad in some way, you have what we end up with. No one else online causes this sort of activity. It's not because of opinions that he cause this situation, it is the behavior.
Originally Posted By jaybee Al's stuff is fun to read, but not to be taken very serious. It is funny how people actually call him a reporter and consider him media. As near as I can tell, he's just a blogger. Or am I wrong and he's getting paid for writing his blogs?
Originally Posted By danyoung Jon, while I tend to agree with what you posted above in #64, the following - >Becaues it's insulting, and causes a lot of anger and hostility among people, and he does it for his own benefit. He's not a fan of this stuff. He's a fan of Al, and has managed to luck into something that lets people think he knows about this stuff, when he really does not.< ...is pure crap. You haven't liked Al since the USENET days, and your hate is coloring everything you read by and about him. I'm sure he has a pretty healthy ego. and one can quibble all day about his style and content. But to say that he doesn't love the Disney parks, what they are and what they should be, is simply nonsense.
Originally Posted By jonvn "You haven't liked Al since the USENET days" No, I haven't. And the reason I didn't is because he was pulling the same junk then as now. "But to say that he doesn't love the Disney parks" I have no reason to think he does. I think he uses them as an outlet to his anger, and to tear down other people and institutions. I say this simply because after watching his little show for all this time, that is what he does. He does not express what he likes, he does not express what is good, it's all negative and anger flowing from there. It doesn't take a lot of brain power to see what that's about, and it's not about Disney.
Originally Posted By danyoung >He does not express what he likes, he does not express what is good, it's all negative and anger flowing from there.< I agree that 2 or 3 years ago it was like this with DCA. It got to where he couldn't say anything good about any part of the Disney empire without taking a dig at DCA ("The new Disney movie is really good, unlike DCA which still sucks!"). Since Eisner's ouster he's been much more positive, and lately with the big bucks pouring into DCA he's been practically giddy. You might give him a read now and then before commenting about how he always is, cuz he ain't always like that these days.
Originally Posted By BlueOhanaTerror >>> I say this simply because after watching his little show for all this time, that is what he does. He does not express what he likes, he does not express what is good, it's all negative and anger flowing from there.<<< Well this is 100 percent absolutely wrong, and anybody READING his stuff without a personal grudge realizes that. You don't have to love the guy (I certainly don't - it's hard to admire a person who's got the social life of the uber-Star Trek nerd) to realize he's been getting a LOT of things right over the last two years, and that his entire tone has been decidedly upbeat and positive in the same span of time. I think you may have stopped reading him, Jon, because you're an intelligent guy, and to have this level of rancor so ably pulling all objectivity from your posts... It's clear to all but you that you're merely proceeding from a grudge, and everything you're assigning to Al regarding his "use" of the parks, is much more readily obvious in your "use" of Al himself. It's embarrassing, actually, especially considering your portrait of someone who's a bit mature in years. That's behavior I might expect from some testosterone-addled fanboy, but not from someone who on just about any other subject, can practice restraint.
Originally Posted By jonvn I don't read his junk anymore at all if I can help it. He has long ago shown what he's all about, and I'm not in a mood to entertain a leapord changing its spots, because they don't. "You might give him a read now and then before commenting about how he always is, cuz he ain't always like that these days." I really don't want to bother. He flat out has never understood what he is talking about, and engages in such thug like behavior that I think it is beneath contempt. "It's clear to all but you that you're merely proceeding from a grudge, and everything you're assigning to Al regarding his "use" of the parks, is much more readily " No. It's not a grudge. If he didn't engage in this sort of behavior, I wouldn't be speaking about him like this. In fact, when he doesn't do this, I have no reason to speak harshly of him, and generally don't. That doesn't mean I speak glowlingly, either. He's done far too much damage, and engaged in far too many acts of disreputable behavior for me to throw my arms around him and give him a big hug. The guy is a skank, and always has been. There was a time I was actually friendly with him, but that ended when I started disagreeing, and he became more and more outright vicious towards me for doing so, ending with him discussing violence at one point. When he starts apologizing for some of the things he's said or done to me, and several other individuals online, and the divisiveness he's brought to the online Disney community, I can consider maybe what you say, but I rather don't think he will, because he never has. This latest thing with the "what side are you on" thing is just the latest in the typical behavior that has ruined a lot of what could have been a great online group of people. I find him personally to blame for much if not most of the antagonism between people online in the Disney community, and as far as I'm concerned he has done little to nothing but be a source of negativity and sorrow for a lot of people.
Originally Posted By jonvn I would further suggest that unless you've been a direct target of his behavior like I have, or other people online that I know, then you really aren't in a position to really tell me how to think, or act with regards to this person.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney ^^Sadly, I have to agree with that. I didn't know Al during the Usenet days in the 60's . I just read him now and he seems to be just passionate about the parks as anyone here. Its fine to disagree with him just like you can with me, but it seems rather silly to say Disney is just some kind of outlet for his dysfuntional emotions. The things he likes, he says, what he doesn't he says.....like everyone else here. Are the more bitter people or 'haters' here have some emotional outlet they are using to discuss Disney or maybe they are JUST discussing what they don't like about Disney, while still inheritantly a fan and will be the first people there anytime there is a new event or attraction opening! Al seems to be in the same camp. C'mon, seriously, get a grip! You don't like the guy, we got it, but this is all a little too much .
Originally Posted By jonvn "it seems rather silly to say Disney is just some kind of outlet for his dysfuntional emotions." There is no other explanation to me for it. People can't seem to remember more than 2 years prior. I can. I have actually tried to be nice to him at times. While he was going psycho on me because I was daring to disagree with him I was really trying very hard to try and stop the crazyness. He just got more and more worked up, and refused. That's what he is. So, when he starts pulling more of the same garbage now that he did a long time ago, well, guess what. It means he hasn't changed one tiny bit. And as far as "getting things right," no, I don't really see that either. He doesn't. And he really never has. So when people try to tell me he has, it's a joke.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney ^^*Sigh* fine Jonvn, then tell us now, right now, what do want "US" to do about it??? Seriously, should we not bother bringing up his boards for discussion here or should we do it while not actually bringing up his actual name? Or should we all just denounce him for the evil, evil man he truly is? Seriously, in your world, how would you want the rest of us to react to him even though NONE of us are conferring with the guy directly, just reading the info that he gives rather it be true or untrue? It just seem like its the same ole dance, everytime, EVERYTIME Lutz's name is bought up here, here you come on a rampage. Man, we get it, we get it, WE GET IT!!!! The guy has done some evil things to you in the past, but I don't know what else to say about that other than three things: 1. Email the guy and work something out. I think your older than me. I'm 33 now and if I have THIS much of a spat with someone by now, I work it out!! I've become mature enough (finally lol) to do that and maybe, MAYBE you guys can too. But, if not.... 2. AVOID any and all posts that has anything to do with Al if it bothers you THAT much instead of regurgitating the same mess (which has NOTHING to do with this website) over and over again. Seriously, if you can avoid his ENTIRE website, why is so hard to avoid the one or two threads that pop up concerning his website every so often? Or finally, last thing.... 3. SUCK IT UP!!!! Acknowledge what he did, hate him for all eternity if you wish, but please m-o-v-e o-n!! You guys weren't married, there are worst things in life, trust me. If every post/thread is going to be how much you hate the guy and everything he do is wrong, wrong, WRONG, then dude its going to be a loooong 5-10 years when DCA is finally done ;D. Jonvn, I'm not trying to be a you-know-what myself about this, but c'mon man, are you at least adult and mature enough to realize there are only THOSE 3 options?? Everything else is just immaturity and childishness at this point. We alll been listening to this for a long time, many probably agree with you about Lutz, but I think its safe to say we are ALL tired of listening to how much Lutz and his site are the devil. Seriously, pick one of the 3 options, be a man and MOVE ON!!!!!! I just don't know what else to say? I held grudges in middle school less time then you seem to hold them with this guy.
Originally Posted By DlandDug I think we are dealing with such strong personalities here that an appeal to reason is really a wasted effort. It has been helpful to learn some back story, though. It has helped me to better understand why some otherwise thoughtful people become so dogmatic and fiercely negative about certain opinions they find disagreeable.
Originally Posted By jonvn "what do want "US" to do about it{" I don't want you to do a thing about it. "should we not bother bringing up his boards for discussion " Fine by me if I never have to hear from him again. "1. Email the guy and work something out." Guess what, I tried. "AVOID any and all posts that has anything to do with Al if it bothers you " Doesn't bother me at all to express my opinion on this or any other topic. The simple fact is if he wants to label people as "Defenders of mediocrity," then it is entirely appropriate for him to be spoken of in the manner he has been. He himself opened this up with his own behavior. "but please m-o-v-e o-n!! " I'm sorry, but I'm not going to ignore this stuff that he continues to engage in, particularly when we get his followers to go around and spread his gospel. "there are only THOSE 3 options" No, there are other options. Stop following this jerk around as if he were some oracle, because he's not. Stop defending the guy as if he is mr. sweet and innocent, because he's not. And, finally, if you don't want to hear me go on about it, don't talk to me about it. Perhaps you might wish to consider that I wouldn't be discussing this with you now if you hadn't started posting to me about it. If you didn't want to hear this response, you shouldn't have asked for one in the form of a post about it to me. This is not a grudge. It's CONTINUED behavior that was offensive then, and is offensive now.
Originally Posted By DlandDug I will also add that I find the whole "Defenders of Mediocrity" thing presumptuous, elitist, and just plain silly.
Originally Posted By disneywatcher >> It's not that Eisner got "greedy." << It's far worse. When it comes to what makes a theme park truly excellent and truly Disneyesque, Eisner had lousy taste.
Originally Posted By jonvn Personally, I would rather just not to have him to talk about. Here's an idea: If you know already what I think about the guy, don't try to tell me what he's all about, because I know full well what he's all about already. That way you won't get a ton of crap from me about it.
Originally Posted By jonvn "When it comes to what makes a theme park truly excellent and truly Disneyesque, Eisner had lousy taste." Matter of opinion. Everything built after 1984 in the theme parks was done with his approval. What you are saying then that everything in the last 20 or so years was lousy. To which I have to ask what's the point of following something if everything is lousy all the time?
