Originally Posted By disneywatcher >> I really don't want to bother. << OMG and LOL. I see paragraph after paragraph, after paragraph -- all one big blur -- written by you about Al Lutz. It's becoming as neurotic and weird, if not more so, as the way you describe others. So allow me to post again about, uh, Michael Eisner and Barry Braverman, and bad taste and lousy judgment, and trips to Abileine. LOL.
Originally Posted By jonvn " I see paragraph after paragraph, after paragraph -- all one big blur -- written by you about Al Lutz." Because people keep talking about it to me. Much like you just did. So I respond. And I already responded to your "bad taste" comment.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney "what do want "US" to do about it{" <<I don't want you to do a thing about it.>> Okay, completely missed the point on that one . "should we not bother bringing up his boards for discussion " <<Fine by me if I never have to hear from him again.>> Sigh, so because YOU have a problem with him, the rest of us should make this a Lutz-free board...do you honestly believe what you are saying? "1. Email the guy and work something out." <<Guess what, I tried.>> Guess what, try again! If you really tired though, well...... "AVOID any and all posts that has anything to do with Al if it bothers you " <<Doesn't bother me at all to express my opinion on this or any other topic. The simple fact is if he wants to label people as "Defenders of mediocrity," then it is entirely appropriate for him to be spoken of in the manner he has been. He himself opened this up with his own behavior.>> Man, I don't think matters WHAT he posts and for a guy who doesn't read his website, why do you even care? As guess taking that 'high road' is quite high. "but please m-o-v-e o-n!! " <<I'm sorry, but I'm not going to ignore this stuff that he continues to engage in, particularly when we get his followers to go around and spread his gospel.>> So basically it comes to 'mommy, he started it!' Reeeaaal mature there dude . "there are only THOSE 3 options" <<No, there are other options. Stop following this jerk around as if he were some oracle, because he's not. Stop defending the guy as if he is mr. sweet and innocent, because he's not. And, finally, if you don't want to hear me go on about it, don't talk to me about it.Perhaps you might wish to consider that I wouldn't be discussing this with you now if you hadn't started posting to me about it. If you didn't want to hear this response, you shouldn't have asked for one in the form of a post about it to me.>> LOL man, are you KIDDING ME??? Read this thread again. Yours was the S-E-C-O-N-D post posted to weigh in and slam the guy. Then you did it again in post #10 and then you went on and on and on. You were slamming the guy the second the thread was made and waaay before I joined in on the discussion, so please don't act like me or anyone is trying to 'bait' you on Al. And man, where did you get the idea that because people read his website, we idolize the guy?? Christ, we are just Disney dorks wanting to hear some info. Just because I like LP, do I idolize Doobie??? (I do btw Doobie, don't ban me again great one ) The guy fills a void JUST like Bean and Galaxie500 use to fill a void, do we all praise them too??? Jonvn, the problem is you think we all have this sensationable need to 'like' Lutz when in reality you're the one who is obsessed with 'hating' him and yeah, it gets tiring sometimes. Believe it or not, we just want to talk about the message without shooting the messenger in every post. If you agree, fine, if not, fine, but you're a been a baby about this for a long, long time and instead of going on HIS site and confronting him about it (since once again, you feel you need to 'get the word out') you bring it all here! Seriously, if he's truly a thorn in your side, take it THERE, the guy has done nothing here, you get what I'm saying? <<This is not a grudge. It's CONTINUED behavior that was offensive then, and is offensive now.>> Whatever you say Captain Ahab...your whale is waiting ;D.
Originally Posted By jonvn "so because YOU have a problem with him, the rest of us should make this a Lutz-free board" Fine by me. Or if you don't want me to go on about it, don't keep discussing it with me. If you want me to continue on, keep writing about it. "Guess what, try again! If you really tired though, well......" You aren't listening to me. I tried. More than once. As recently as a year ago. He's a no-account skank, and that's it. "So basically it comes" Basically, it comes down to someone using their website as a way to insult and belittle everyone who doesn't tow his line, and me not caring for it at all. "Yours was the S-E-C-O-N-D post posted to weigh in and slam the guy. " Good, I was timely. I really thought the phrase he used made no sense. "waaay before I joined in on the discussion" But now that you are here, you are continuing it. I don't mind. "where did you get the idea that because people read his website, we idolize the guy??" Some people do. "the problem is you think we all have this sensationable need to 'like' Lutz when in reality you're the one who is obsessed with 'hating' him " I'm not obsessed with hating him. I simply would rather not hear about him, but if I do, and he engages in the sort of thing he has, then I'll say something. I'm sorry, but you're black, right? Suppose I started saying the KKK was just a misunderstood group of fun loving guys? Kind of offensive. You'd be a bit hostile about it, I think. Again, sorry if this is offensive, but that's what I could think of as an example. "we just want to talk about the message without shooting the messenger in every post" Then discuss it. Here's a thing you should consider: It's a sore spot, I don't like him, and I'm not going to be very cheery in discussing him. You know I am not exactly mr. cheery in any case, so this is going to be even harsher. Take that into consideration and let it go. "you're a been a baby about this for a long, long time and instead of going on HIS site and confronting him " Oh, well, I'm not allowed there, you see. And perhaps if you were threatened with violence, you might consider it a slightly different thing, as well. Now, the thing is that I actually am a very forgiving person. Someone on here once said something really nasty to me about violence, and I've gotten past it. Didn't take long, either. They got angry with me and my attitude and made some inapproriate comment. Well, they said sorry, and that was it. And he doesn't do that all the time, and is an otherwise ok person. With this other person you are discussing, it's years worth of continued behavior that is going on even to this day. So, I'm not too thrilled about it, and think that it's a terrible thing to have inflicted on us. "Seriously, if he's truly a thorn in your side, take it THERE, the guy has done nothing here, you get what I'm saying?" I understand what you are saying, but it really is not important to me. You act as if I am some sort of idiot and that I haven't tried various things to try and rectify the situation. You are wrong. I talk about what is talked about on here. If it's not talked about, I won't talk about it. The only reason we are having this conversation now is because you are continuing it. Basically, if I want to read about Al, I will go to his site. I don't see why I should be subjected to his nonsense on other sites. The fact that I am is the way it goes. But if you're going to talk about this lowlife, I'll respond to it.
Originally Posted By jonvn Oh, and I'm sure he loves the conversation anyway. Makes his name more well known, so I'm doing him a favor.
Originally Posted By Tiggirl Did you really just compare Al Lutz calling those who like Paradise Pier a Defenders of Mediocrity to the KKK and the hate and often times violence that comes out of their group toward people with darker skin than them? Wow... your view on the world is a little skewed...
Originally Posted By Skellington88 Jonvn is just jealous he has not and never will reach Al Lutz's level of stardome. Al Lutz is quoted in the news and I bet that just ticks Jonvn off. and I dont get what the point of statements like "I was writing about disney on the internet long before Lutz!" is. Afterall, there were movies about space before Star Wars but Star Wars was the big hit that caught on.
Originally Posted By Skellington88 Remember kids, Jonvn defends the DCA that opened in 2001 and Superstar Limo when both are almost universally regarded as extremly poor offerigns from the Walt Disney company. If you defend garbage like that I can't respect you because your making excuses for the company's lazyness.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Did you really just compare Al Lutz calling those who like Paradise Pier a Defenders" I know it was way out of scope, but it was all I could think of. Sorry. "Jonvn is just jealous he has not and never will reach Al Lutz's level of stardome." Yes, that's it exactly. I'm famous enough as it is, actually. Actually, I started the Jim Hill site for him, and was going to be a contributor there, but really, I have no interest. Thanks.
Originally Posted By jonvn "If you defend garbage like that I can't respect you" Considering you're 19, and think that signing up for Save Disney somehow gives you insight into the board room, it really isn't all that important to me who you respect.
Originally Posted By Skellington88 Jonvn...I am 22 (born in 84). I never said signing up for Save Disney gave me insight but I read DISNEY WAR by the respected and critcally acclaimed Journalist James B. Stewart who actually spent time with Michael Eisner and others and even got their permission to print the book!
Originally Posted By Tiggirl <I know it was way out of scope, but it was all I could think of.> At least you recognize that. I'm slightly less concerned about you now. <Remember kids, Jonvn defends the DCA that opened in 2001 and Superstar Limo when both are almost universally regarded as extremly poor offerigns from the Walt Disney company.> I don't follow a lot of who says what here but I have to say that I personally prefer the DCA of 2001 to what we currently have right now. I liked Eureka! a hundred times more than I like Block Party Bash. I'd rather watch Blast than Aladdin any day. SSL was way cheesy... and I enjoyed it. I'd rather be eating at Hollywood and Dine than any of the current counter service offerings (save for those yummy corn dogs at the Corn Dog Castle). DCA was not prefect when it opened and and it certainly had a lot of room for improvement. But now its just a watered down version of a half baked idea. I hope to see great improvement with whatever comes in the future for DCA.
Originally Posted By jonvn OK, so you're 22. I'm glad you read Disney War. I read it too. I've read about 30 books on the subject, periodicals, have materials published by Disney over the last 50 or so years. OK? I know a lot of this junk inside and out, forgotten more than most people will likely ever know, and I still don't pretend to know what goes on inside other people's heads. You're 22. Listen: As you go through life you're going to find out something. The more you think you know, the more you find out you don't know. That is if you're wise. It's very easy to read a book or something and think you've gotten the whole story. That's almost never really true. You need to look at things with a critical eye. Think logically and use your brains to understand that not everything is in simple black and white. When you try to tell me what went on in the boardroom of Disney because of this or that, you sound silly. It's better for you to say "according to Disney War..." then you sound as if you're not trying to suggest you were Michael Eisner's under table assistant. You also need to understand that sometimes what you are told is just not right. Sometimes things happen in life that are not neat and pretty and boxed up in a pretty package for you. Get on with your life, stop being angry over a theme park, and enjoy yourself.
Originally Posted By jonvn "I'm slightly less concerned about you now." Eh, I get pissed off about stuff and don't hide it at all.
Originally Posted By gadzuux >> Jonvn is just jealous he has not and never will reach Al Lutz's level of stardome. Al Lutz is quoted in the news and I bet that just ticks Jonvn off. << I tend to believe this too. For better or worse, al has risen to a unique position within the disney fan community. Because jon doesn't like al, this rankles him. He thinks al is undeserving of whatever prominence he has, and seeks to undermine al's very legitimacy - out of sheer spite. Whatever happened in the USENET days is so much water the bridge. But carrying a grudge this big for so long is a much heavier burden for jon than it ever will be for al. Al never says a peep about jon - that could be called "taking the high road". Besides, it's easy for jon to take shots at al's credibility - al's a high profile webmaster who regularly makes predictions about things to come. Jon doesn't do that - jon compromises his own credibility by engaging in mudslinging against al. Al doesn't do that - most people don't even know who jon is. It's a battle that's tilted in al's favor, and he seems to know it. Jon doesn't.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy I think the bottom line is that instinctively humans are "pack" animals. We have a need to belong to groups. It's not instinctive to go out and come to conclusions on your own without looking around to see if there are others out there in agreement. Al Lutz represents part of a pack of animals that is very critical of Disney, anti-management, and very hostile towards anyone that proves his pack wrong. That's what defines his group. It's hard for him to change his tone because it's largely how he attracted his following. If he decided to be rational after all these years, the people attracted to his pack characteristics would stop reading. So, he plods along recycling the same old editorial garbage to go along with whatever facts he picks up along the way. Then you have the Marcies of the world who are usually jubilant about everything Disney, pro-management, but also hostile towards being told they're wrong. It's hard for them to change their pack dynamic either. It's like gang warfare. Us vs. them. I appreciate Jonvn's responses because they don't reflect any need to belong to either camp, but more measured and rational arguments on all of these subjects. I don't subscribe to either pack, but I guess I didn't get that genetic instinct.
Originally Posted By gadzuux I don't see myself as part of a "pack" because I enjoy reading his column. and it's the "whatever facts he picks up along the way" that keep me coming back for more - not any particular editorial slant. Al dishes up red meat like nobody else - give the guy his due.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Because jon doesn't like al, this rankles him." No. This is not right. What rankles me is people quoting him as if he were some sage. He is not. "Whatever happened in the USENET days is so much water the bridge." Perhaps, except when things continue to happen. Calling people names on his site, for exapmle, did not happen on Usenet. IT happened last week. I know perfectly well what I'm doing. His comments are tiresome and the same thing over and over again, and it's quite annoying to hear them when all he does is change a name, and starts repeating the same old "The president of Disneyland must be gotten rid of" schtick. And then you hear is little elves going around repeating it. What rankles me is not Al's fame or whatever, it's the stupidity displayed by which people simple swallow this nonsense. That is what is annoying. "Jon doesn't do that " That's right. Jon doesn't pretend to know things he does not, nor claim a lock on the absolute truth of the matter.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Al dishes up red meat like nobody else - give the guy his due. " He serves up crap that is usually wrong. That people say it's not wrong and defend him by claiming he has some sort of accurate track record, when he most certainly does not, is also annoying. And if he were not such a blatant coward, he'd actually discuss this junk he dishes out, instead of hiding behind a bunch of parrots who know little more than what he tells them to think.
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>That's right. Jon doesn't pretend to ... claim a lock on the absolute truth of the matter.<< Funniest thing I've read all day. And written in third person, no less.
