Originally Posted By WorldDisney <<I have a question: Why do you continue discussing it with Jon if you are tired of hearing about it?>> This is my entire point, right there! Until this thread came along, I have NEVER discussed this with Jon at all. I just try to get through it, ignore it, glance through it or whatever and we been doing this for a loooong time now!! I'm simply SICK of hearing about it now and why I'm at my wits end to for him to stop talking about it. There isn't one thread about Lutz here without Jonvn making comments about the guy up and down the board and I feel like I been 'dragged' into a feud when I just want to read what do people think of the rumor about The Little Mermaid ride? But its pretty ironic lol. We don't say anything and Jonvn talks about it. We tell him we don't want him to talk about it and he just talks about it more, but somehow we are the ones to blame for it because someone innocently posts a Miceage article up I guess lol. Really, just pleeeeaaaasee move on or just move on to Miceage and battle it out personnlly with Vadar there until the next Iceage .
Originally Posted By jonvn "saying we are TIRED OF HEARING ABOUT IT!" Well, then stop talking to me about it! I'm responding to people's posts. "you bought basically everyone who reads these boards in on it." I expressed my opinion of him, his comments, and why I find his comments of little worth. I'm not supposed to say anything about things he has said? " I DON'T CARE about your feud with this guy " Then why do you continue to talk to me about it? This is what I do not understand. "I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the other 95% here don't care either." Then why engage me over it? "so WHICH is it???" It is if someone brings him up, and points out something he says, I'll say something about it if I feel I want to. If you don't want to get into an endless argument over it with me, don't. "How do you think me and Mr. X get along so well here" Drugs? "I just get SICK of hearing how this guy is the devil over and over again by you" And I'm sick of hearing how he's always right, or whatever, as well. "Most people are 'attacking' you, because like me, they are just fed up hearing about it." Actually, it's like three people. And it doesn't bother me in the least. "has been turned into about you and Lutz, ONCE AGAIN!" This thread is what people have made of it. I made my comments, I was attacked for apparently not being deferential enough to Al. It went on from there. "you actually admitted to us this has been going on for DECADES now" No. I've been online for decades. "arguing over someone who probably doesn't give you a moments thought anymore" Perhaps, if he says things I don't care for. "Do you honestly think you are going to resolve anything " Bulletin boards don't resolve anything. They are here to discuss stuff. I commented on what Al said. I don't particularly see a reason for me to not comment on a webmaster's statements, though, particularly when he puts his blogs up to be commented upon. "this is what you are teaching him" What I'm teaching him is no one's concern. "never let it go" I've let all kinds of things go. However, if someone continues to makes statements that I find to be ridiculous, I'll state as such. "you are coming out of this looking like you're a kid yourself" I honestly don't care what your opinion is of me. What I'm doing is commenting on statements made by someone online, and being attacked for it. That to me makes it look very odd indeed. "should be handling this much better" What should I be handling better? 30 or so insulting posts by a few people? I think I'm doing fine there. Basically, what you want is for me to not say a word when Al posts something that everyone else is allowed to comment on. I'm sorry, that's wrong. I will say it again. If you don't want me to talk about this stuff, don't engage me in it. You are continuing to post and discuss this with me. That implies to me that you wish to continue the discussion, which I'm more than happy to do. I don't see much point in it, but if that's what you wish, I'm fine with it. So what is it exactly that you want? You tell me. You said you don't want to hear me say that I don't care for what Al has said. Fine. Am I to only then praise him? Is that what is required here? Explain exactly what I am supposed to say, and not supposed to say. Tell me how that works. I'll try and follow your suggestion.
Originally Posted By jonvn "I'm simply SICK of hearing about it now and why I'm at my wits end to for him to stop talking about it." Then stop talking to me about it! Gee, it's really easy! But I will repeat my last paragraph: So what is it exactly that you want? You tell me. You said you don't want to hear me say that I don't care for what Al has said. Fine. Am I to only then praise him? Is that what is required here? Explain exactly what I am supposed to say, and not supposed to say. Tell me how that works. I'll try and follow your suggestion.
Originally Posted By jonvn "We don't say anything and Jonvn talks about it. " So what it sounds like is that you simply wish me to no longer speak about the subject matter at all. If Al says something, I'm not supposed to challenge what he says. That about it?
Originally Posted By BlueOhanaTerror >>> If BlueOhana thinks Lutz is God (not saying that, just making a point) SO WHAT???<<< That's what's funny... I don't. The guy is clearly an obssessed geek, who gets plenty of things wrong, but has apparently improved his sources over the last couple of years - and modified his tone. Jon doesn't get that, and has to frame what I've been saying as if it's some fanatical endorsement of the man. It hasn't been, and anyone reading my posts knows that. What I take exception to, is that Jon obviously has NOT bothered to read him in the last couple of years, because he's said Al gets more wrong than right - STILL. And he hasn't. He also maintains that Al's tone - which I didn't like for years - is STILL hateful and caustic and negative - and it's not. At least it hasn't been for a while. So I've hardly been extolling the virtues of Al Lutz. I HAVE taken exception to some guy who pretends to have helped found the internet before the sale of personal computers even took place, claiming that he knows something about someone based on experiences and alleged (and probably many of them true) offenses committed in the PAST. Everything about Jon - his website, his posts, his adherence to the status quo - is about the past. He lives there. To me, it's sad, and this "I know you are but what am I?!" mindset, is kind of pathetic to me. Far more pathetic than some internet fame-hound whose only claim to prominence is publishing Disney theme park rumors. Neither one of these guys is behaving like a grownup. Jon somehow claims the higher moral ground, but he's standing on quicksand here. Silly quicksand, actually. And Jon doesn't like when that's pointed out.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Jon doesn't get that, and has to frame what I've been saying as if it's some fanatical endorsement of the man. It hasn't been, and anyone reading my posts knows that." The fact that you have flown into a rage because I said something less then praiseworthy makes this statement hard to believe. That and the fact you went out of your way to comment on another webblogger who debunks al's comments is also telling. "What I take exception to, is that Jon obviously has NOT bothered to read him in the last couple of years" I read only sometimes, not regularly, and of course I get the gist of it from these regurgitations. I read it when something gets brought up on a board and I want to see it for myself. So, what you take exception to is not correct. "He also maintains that Al's tone - which I didn't like for years - is STILL hateful and caustic and negative" I have said that what he has said in his last missive was. "I HAVE taken exception to some guy who pretends to have helped found the internet before the sale of personal computers even took place" Referring to me? This is why I find your comments rather ridiculous in general, and suspicious. Because not only did I never claim to "help found the internet" but then you go forth and put out some very personal and nasty comments about how everything about me "is about the past." Just very personal nasty things. Why? Because I said something less than complimentary about some other webmaster. That's what being a suckup is, no matter what you claim you've written. You are attacking me in a very nasty personal way because I don't care for what some other guy has to say on his website. So, again, does he pay you?
Originally Posted By WorldDisney Okay, no more quoting lol. Jonvn, man, you have turned this into a circlar argument! You say you only talk about Lutz because others talk about him to you and then you say things like this: <<I don't particularly see a reason for me to not comment on a webmaster's statements, though, particularly when he puts his blogs up to be commented upon.>> This is what I'm talking about. You are basically just WAITING to attack the guy. You already said you don't go to his website, you don't read his blogs, but c'mon you do....you just wait for someone to post it here . That's like saying I don't shoplift from a supermarket because I eat it all there lol. Either you do or you don't, but my point is this: Someone makes a post about Lutz, you comment on it, 99% of the time its negative. Someone comments on your post and it turns into the Lutz and Jonvn show again. Listen, you have 100% right to comment on his bloggs and NO they don't have to be rosey and cheerful, but man all you do is WAIT to slam the guy. What's the point? Look at the SECOND post on the thread here, you're not pouncing on the contents of the article, you're simply pouncing on the author of the article over some childish feud and yes, its tiring and very transparent. Its tiring to see in every thread made about Lutz. Dude, get over it!! Everytime you post, it always comes back to you and the guy. Your posts just reeks of it whether someone 'bait' you or not. And like I said, you DON'T have to like what he writes (but then, you don't READ what he writes, right?? So, why do you care so much if you don't take the time to read of it, even though you pretty much do. I guess its better to assume its ALL wrong I guess?) and believe me, I know for a fact Mr. X isn't a big fan of the guy, but he doesn't write in every board how evil he is either....he leaves that venom for DCA for where it should be ;D. Dlanddug, not a huge fan either, but still, not every post is about how evil Lutz is, that's ALL we're saying here. I can care less you like Lutz and I can care less you want to talk about his articles, but its quite obvious it has NOTHING to do with what the guy writes since you actually compared what he does to the KKK on these very same boards in response to one of my posts. LOL, THAT'S what I'm talking about. Even Tiggirl picked up on it and she rarely posts here. I don't really care who the guy is as a person anyway, just how accurate OR inaccurate his reporting is and like to discuss without all the spewing hate about it, that's all. But, I know I just wasted MORE time to respond to you lol. Again its funny, you wrote many times where you said Lutz can never admit he's ever wrong and I swear dude, you guys have more in common then you ever know or admit . Okay, off to bed, night!
Originally Posted By jonvn The fact that you have to resort to dishonesty and strawmen simply goes to show the sort of person you are, and have been for some time. If you really had any sort of solid foundation for your comments, you'd use them. Instead, you have to make things up that were never said, so as to try to make me look bad. The thing is, I've run up against your behavior before, from you, from others, it's always the same. You have a choice. You can either accept that people in this world are not all going to love Al, or you can get yourself in hysterics when someone is going to tell you he doesn't. The world doesn't revolve around Al, as much as you seem to want to make it to. You are the cause of this entire thread like this. I posted a couple of things, and you flew into an out of control hysteria that was completely out of line from what was said. Again, completely telling. Not that I care, but your general dishonest comments regarding me make me feel that you are making similar ones about yourself.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney <<The fact that you have to resort to dishonesty and strawmen simply goes to show the sort of person you are, and have been for some time.>> Woah there, what did I lie about? What did I say about you that was inaccurate? All I said was that you have it out for Lutz basically, right? How am I lying now? I'm not trying to make you look bad dude. Believe it or not, even though we agree on very little, I like you, I like everybody lol. I'm not here to make enemies, but I call it like I see it just like you do. I just want you to cut down on the hate, that's all. Honestly, when its all said and done, I'm simply saying keep it civil, about ANYONE!! Just like I would tell another poster to calm down about someone else regardless how they felt, that's what I am saying here. I don't have any love OR hate for Al, really, I don't, I just get tired of all the one-sided fighting that goes on here, because really that's what it is since we ONLY hear you're side of it, right?
Originally Posted By jonvn "You are basically just WAITING to attack the guy" I am going to comment on things he says that I agree or disagree with. And you are suggesting I should not? "Someone makes a post about Lutz, you comment on it, 99% of the time its negative" That might be. I don't have a favorable opinion of him. "Someone comments on your post and it turns into the Lutz and Jonvn show again." It doesn't have to. "What's the point?" I don't like people getting away with junk. "I know for a fact Mr. X isn't a big fan of the guy, but he doesn't write in every board how evil he is either" I only post on a couple of boards. Do you mean topics? I don't do that, either. I actually do discuss what he's said sometimes. However, in this particular case, I didn't say he was evil. ON this topic, I thought he said something really stupid, and mentioned that. Somehow, that's got turned into this long thing because BlueOhana couldn't tolerate it. "it always comes back to you and the guy" I don't think so. It is only doing it now because people other than myself are doing that. "So, why do you care so much if you don't take the time to read of it, even though you pretty much do." Because I don't like false information given out, but aside from that, I don't always slam him. I often say "If what he says is true..." then comment on that. Your description of what I say is not accurate. "I can care less" You mean you could NOT care less. "THAT'S what I'm talking about." I already said it was an example that was extreme and not the best. So you bring it up again because um, well, you are running out of ammunition? "I know I just wasted MORE time to respond to you" Yes, you did. Did you have fun? "wrote many times where you said Lutz can never admit he's ever wrong and I swear dude, you guys have more in common then you ever know or admit" I admit I'm wrong all the time. You just have to show me why. I'm not seeing that coming from anyone here. Why don't you answer my question to you. Here it is again: So what is it exactly that you want? You tell me. You said you don't want to hear me say that I don't care for what Al has said. Fine. Am I to only then praise him? Is that what is required here? Explain exactly what I am supposed to say, and not supposed to say. Tell me how that works. I'll try and follow your suggestion.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Woah there, what did I lie about? " NOT YOU! That was for blue ohana. I think you're trying very hard to be nice and respectful.
Originally Posted By jonvn "really that's what it is since we ONLY hear you're side of it, right?" I will give as honest an answer as anyone can about pretty much anything. I find dishonesty rather a bad thing. Again, I think your posts are fine, and they really don't upset or bother me at all.
Originally Posted By jonvn Now are we done? Or does Blue Ohana want to make up more bad things about me because I dared to not be praiseworthy of Al Lutz? I think after 170 or so posts, it should be realized that insulting me or lying about me, or whatever really isn't going to do a whole lot of good if you intend on making me not state my feelings on a matter. I'll continue to say how I feel, and why. The things I say about Al go to his credibility. If people want to ask me about them, I'll respond. Other than that, I don't see a whole lot of point in any of this.
Originally Posted By Mr X **Okay, I will admit, I haven't read the last 60 or so messages since I been gone lol, so forgive me if I'm sounding like a broken record, but this is all reaally, reeeally silly!!** Hmm...where do I begin WorldDisney? Well, somewhere in there he asked if you were black, and if you were a supporter of the ku klux klan...there was some sort of Lutz/KKK comparison, but then Tiggirl ran to your defense and Jon admitted that the comparison was a bit extreme... That was page one or so, should I go on? Oh, and by the way, anyone who wants to know what WorldDisney sounds like, read post 152 out loud. That's CLASSIC WorldDisney, just like his ass was back lounging in my living room. Move out of the sticks, dude. Dump that low class Korea country and come back to Japan! I miss the hang! Oh yeah...post 159 too, any LPers that know WorldDisney's voice...that's him RIGHT there huh? Like, in annoyed mode, right? GOD, I miss WorldDisney. Dude, you're a "fly halfway round the world type", why not come to Orlando in December? I've got family there, we'll eat good. No backpacks or cheeze&crackers by the side of the road like usual.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney ^^Okay, whew . I guess I should've the read the ENTIRE post before I commented lol. It seem like it just came out of left field. The only people who ever called me a liar are people I dated ;D. <<I think you're trying very hard to be nice and respectful.>> Well, because I am . But dude, I won't lie (see ), its getting reeeeeaaaally hard. I'm not trying to be harsh, but yes, it feels like I'm hitting a brick walls at times with you. You have a way of thinking and that's all there is to it and while there is nothing we can do about it, you don't seem to allow to take in what we are saying at here, espcially here. TRUST ME, I can be quilty of that myself obviously but if there are others saying the same thing one person is saying, maybe it means something. You're not backing down about Lutz, got it....but maybe you SHOULD, that's what we are trying to say (without sounding harsh). If you truly do read his articles and OBJECTIVE about them, then I apologize right here and now, but the stuff I seem to catch in your posts usually don't read that way. A lot of times, its 'I REEEEAAALLY hate this guy, so I'm gooing to nit pick this, say he's an idiot here and completely denounce him for the Disney geek soul sucker he is and you're idiot if you believe one word of what he is saying.' Seriously, that's how most of your posts seem to read to me, BUT if I'm wrong and REALLY inaccurate on that, I apologize now, but Jonvn, really, can you at least admit arguing about the same thing for years, decades, whatever on end ISN'T healthy or anything close to being mature and there should SOMETHING you should do in the long run? If I was still talking about an ex girlfriend who burned me in High School 15 years later, people would tell me the SAME thing I am telling you. That's all. Flame away . I'm REALLY off to bed now and will try and respond after this has reached another 70 posts .
Originally Posted By Mr X **"I can care less" You mean you could NOT care less.** Actually, both terms are acceptable (I always found that strange myself). <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Language/FAQs" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W ikipedia:Reference_desk/Language/FAQs</a> I blame it on Al Lutz, personally.
Originally Posted By berol "You mean you could NOT care less." That doesn't work either, sounds like laziness. "You COULD care less if you applied yourself!"
Originally Posted By jonvn "it feels like I'm hitting a brick walls at times with you" Yes, you likely are. Sorry. "you don't seem to allow to take in what we are saying at here" I take in what you are saying. I simply don't agree, and have not been given reason to change my opinion. I also have to consider the source and the way the message is delivered. Not that you did this, but if someone starts creating strawman arguments or lies, then there isn't much point in listening to that person, is there. "but if there are others saying the same thing one person is saying, maybe it means something." Generally it does. "A lot of times, its 'I REEEEAAALLY hate this guy, so I'm gooing to nit pick this, say he's an idiot here and completely denounce him for the Disney geek soul sucker he is and you're idiot if you believe one word of what he is saying.' " I don't feel I say it like that. First, because while I dislike him, I don't HATE him. As I said, I tried to bury the hatchet a while ago, even. I reserve hate for people like Hitler and the KKK. What is likely coming across is my inate ability to put across my feelings rather forcefully, and in no uncertain terms. "can you at least admit arguing about the same thing for years, decades, whatever on end ISN'T healthy or anything close to being mature and there should SOMETHING you should do in the long run?" But I'm not really doing that. I'm discussing stuff that is happening today. On the current events. I've actually been rather critical of people who keep bringing up 2001 as if it were still today. That's not what is going on. The only reason I bring up past events is because have asked me why I have such disdain. Then things in the past are mentioned. Otherwise, I don't. "If I was still talking about an ex girlfriend who burned me in High School 15 years later, people would tell me the SAME thing I am telling you." If your ex girlfriend was still going around doing things in a public way in the crowd you were hanging out with, then you'd have every right to talk about what she was doing. If you had nothing to do with each other, never heard from each other then yes, of course that'd be crazy. But since Al has made himself up to be this guy who posts all this junk, then he gets to be commented on. And if his statements are worth me rebutting, I will. He is not the only person whose statements I will comment on. I really don't have any sort of problem arguing with anyone if I disagree with them. I do this because talking on boards is fun for me. But I just don't have hard feelings about any of it. I just don't. And while I don't like Al, I don't have that hard a feeling about him either, I've said numerous times on here, he's found himself something, so good for him. But that does not mean I should give him a pass on things just because some people don't like me saying what I think of his latest bit of gossip.
