Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Here ... I'll get you started: It's illegal to ride a motorcycle without a helmet. I'm sure you can think of some more.>> Well yes there are cases like that, but they are instances where you can easily verify that a person is being stupid. You don't need to prove you own a helmet to purchase a motorcycle, but if you ride on a street without one in an area where it is required, you will be ticketed. How do you keep a person from being stupid in their own home? Unless you want government surveillance of people in their homes (which I doubt), there is no way to stop the stupid that is done in private.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>False. Thousands of examples.<< Seriously. What is it about guns that has them so lodged into the public conscience as something we can't really stop or do much about? We saw deaths drop from stricter DUI legislation. We saw deaths drop from stronger workplace safety standards. And again, part of this is creating a sense of boundaries and what's acceptable and unacceptable when it comes to guns. If we pass stricter gun legislation, I have no doubt that the next day some yahoo while shoot someone by accident, or their kid will get ahold of a gun and kill themselves or someone else. And of course, the usual suspects will say, "See! Fat lotta good that new law did!" But over time it will make an impact. Instead of four toddlers shooting people in one weekend, we'll have one a month. Not perfect, but better. Just like this weekend a drunk driver will kill someone, it's a lot better than four drunk drivers doing it. And I guess we all could've said, "You can't legislate against stupid when a drunk drives."
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Again... BIG difference. You can get drunk all you want at home, and even get pretty drunk in a public place as long as you don't try driving. But the minute you hit the road and either display signs of drunk driving or run into a checkpoint you will likely be caught. How do you stop stupid at home? I'm guessing the guns in question were legally acquired, and would be legally acquired under any proposed law too. But once you have a gun, nothing prevents you from being stupid with it in your own home. Today there is a story in the news about a man accidentally running over his two-year-old child and severing her legs with a riding lawn mower. Yes, the mother was yelling for the child to stop running when the accident happened. But what on the earth was a guy doing mowing the lawn with a young child outside? I never had a riding mower, but always required my kids to be inside while I was mowing... you never know when a mower might hit a rock and turn it into a lethal projectile, even if the child is a fair distance away. I feel terribly sorry for the man... I can't imagine the guilt and remorse that he will live with for the rest of his life... I don't know if I could do it. But once again, you can't legislate against stupid.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>How do you stop stupid at home?<< Repeal NRA-drafted legislation that exempts gun owners from negligence laws. If someone dies or is wounded from your gun, regardless of the circumstances, there should be a thorough investigation that more often than not results in stiff charges and penalties. If a kid shoots someone with your gun, you should have a mandatory prison sentence for neglect and involuntary manslaughter. If your gun is stolen and used in a crime due to neglect (wasn't in a safe, didn't lock your car, etc) you should face jail time and harsh fines. It won't stop everything, but over time, it can create a sense of responsibility and serve to stigmatize those who don't obey the law.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer You don't legislate against stupidity - you make sure that people have to pay when their stupidity winds up costing other people. As ecdc is pointing out, you make sure that gun owners aren't immune from penalties if their negligence causes others to be injured or killed. You make sure that gun and ammo sales are taxed to a sufficient level to pay for the public costs of protecting society from harmful gun use and for the public safety and healthcare costs associated with gun ownership. You require gun owners to carry insurance to cover health care costs from accidental (or intentional) shootings. It isn't legislating against stupidity - it's passing laws to mitigate for the effects of stupidity on the less stupid.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <You don't legislate against stupidity - you make sure that people have to pay when their stupidity winds up costing other people.> As usual, Tom - concise, to the point, and absolutely correct.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Repeal NRA-drafted legislation that exempts gun owners from negligence laws. If someone dies or is wounded from your gun, regardless of the circumstances, there should be a thorough investigation that more often than not results in stiff charges and penalties.>> What are you talking about? There is certainly no Federal like that. <<Gun Owners Are Obligated to Store their Weapons Safely Written by: Jeremy S Geigle Mesa Criminal Defense Attorney 25-year old Nick Bell and his friend, 24-year-old Jeffrey Charbonneau were invited to stay at the Vermont home of Jim Goodwin on the night before Thanksgiving. In the morning, Bell came into the room where Charbonneau was sleeping to wake him up. Jokingly, Bell took a .22-caliber semi-automatic rifle, with no safety engaged, off of a wall in the room and began walking around the bed with it. The rifle went off accidentally and a bullet entered Charbonneau’s heart from the side, instantly killing him. Bell pleaded no contest to felony charges of manslaughter, and misdemeanor charges of reckless endangerment and assault with a weapon. He was sentenced to one year in prison. The rifle belonged to Jim’s brother, Charlie, who was out of town visiting family. While Jim was the only member of the Goodwin family at home when Charbonneau was killed, the entire family is being sued for wrongful death because the gun wasn’t stored safely. David Cleary, representing attorney for the Charbonneau family, explains that “If you ask a guest over, you have a duty to maintain your premises in reasonably safe condition,” and that “the constitutional right to bear arms doesn’t negate a gun-owner’s legal obligations to use and store weapons in a safe manner.” In Arizona, if you fail to store your weapons safely and someone is hurt because of your negligence, you can be charged with endangerment, among other potential offenses.>> Source: <a href="http://www.avvo.com/legal-guides/ugc/gun-owners-are-obligated-to-store-their-weapons-safely" target="_blank">http://www.avvo.com/legal-guid...s-safely</a>
Originally Posted By ecdc >>There is certainly no Federal like that.<< Right, there are multiple states with exceptions to negligence laws for guns. A very common line in the news from a sheriff after a kid kills his friend with a gun is "This is just a tragic accident" and no charges are filed. In Utah, if a gun is discharged due to negligence, it's a class-b misdemeanor. So it varies from state to state; perhaps there should be a federal law minimum.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<So it varies from state to state; perhaps there should be a federal law minimum.>> Probably a good idea, but in the end I don't know how much good it would do. There are many cases where charges are not brought even when it would be legal to do so. Why? Because the prosecutor (who already has more cases than she/he can handle) knows that the chances of conviction are very slim. So often the jurors think "The poor guy is already suffering more than we can imagine from the death of his child/spouse/whatever... he is already being punished enough."
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>As ecdc is pointing out, you make sure that gun owners aren't immune from penalties if their negligence causes others to be injured or killed. You make sure that gun and ammo sales are taxed to a sufficient level to pay for the public costs of protecting society from harmful gun use and for the public safety and healthcare costs associated with gun ownership. You require gun owners to carry insurance to cover health care costs from accidental (or intentional) shootings.<< Agree with all of this. The truth is, there are not really very many "accidental" shootings. You have people who either go into a homicidal rage, suicide, gross negligence/carelessness, or self defense. Some of those get called accidental, but almost all of those could be prevented if gun owners paid more attention. Perhaps knowing they'll be looking at a heavy fine or prison time for being careless will get the attention of some and save some lives. Not all, of course, but some. I especially like the idea of having gun owners be required to carry insurance so that the rest of society isn't forced to pay financially for the carelessness of gun owners. All those personal responsibility fans ought to agree with that as well.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan I guarantee that the best form of gun control would be getting insurance companies involved. That insurance would not come cheap for someone who has a shady criminal record, or any incident involving misuse of a gun. Like Dick Cheney, for example.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I guess the reason I consider myself a left-leaning moderate (with an occasional libertarian streak) rather than a liberal is that I just don't believe all of society's ills can be solved with government laws or regulations. So often the laws end up being ineffective, or are found to be misguided or just plain wrong. Yet these laws remain on the books for years, rarely being repealed. How many states still have anti-sodomy laws, whether it is between same or opposite sex couples? I believe the current count is still 12 states.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan I don't think laws will solve EVERYthing when it comes to guns. Joe Biden touched on this today when he said that some in the new gun culture just like how having a gun feels like a Ferrari. (I'm sure this infuriated gun nuts, but it's just the truth.) So there needs to be a culture shift on guns, and I think that's happened a little bit since Sandy Hook. We love our guns in this country. Yet we don't want to see photos of soldiers who have been shot (or even bin laden), because that's too upsetting. We don't want to see these little children splattered to pieces because that's upsetting as well. And yet, we crow about the 2nd amendment and how great guns are, to the point of worshipping them, with an absolute inability to really look at what the aftermath can be. As a country, we cover our eyes and at best pretend that people clutch their wound and collapse like in an old western when shot.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Agree with all of this. The truth is, there are not really very many "accidental" shootings.>> Yes... according to data compiled by politifact.com only 1.8% of all gun deaths are classified as unintentional. <<The first is data for deaths by guns, which is included in an annual report about deaths of all types during calendar year 2009. The numbers for gun deaths is broken down into several categories: Suicide: 18,735 deaths Homicide: 11,493 deaths Unintentional: 554 deaths Legal interventions: 333 deaths Undetermined: 232 deaths Total: 31,347 deaths>> Source: <a href="http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jul/23/facebook-posts/do-people-get-shot-every-year-facebook-post-says/" target="_blank">http://www.politifact.com/trut...st-says/</a>
Originally Posted By ecdc ^^^ That's an interesting link. I do think a lot of this is more about stigma than anything. I think new laws help push back against this NRA notion that guns are a wonderful tool and we all just ought a be packing to stop the bad guys. But the point about unintentional gun deaths being such a small percentage is well taken. I wonder how homicides break down. How much is stranger vs family member, how much is attributable to gang violence, domestic violence, drug violence, etc. A lot of that can overlap, too. I'm game for anything that gets Americans to see that: 1) You don't need a gun. 2) Owning a gun is more dangerous than not 3) Access to guns turns volatile situations deadly, etc. What can turn Americans around about gun violence?
Originally Posted By RoadTrip The same thing as could solve many of our ills... education, education, education. I really have much the same hopes and goals as most of the liberals here. I just see different ways of getting there. I dislike too many of our current laws to have much enthusiasm for having even more.
Originally Posted By EdisYoda <<The same thing as could solve many of our ills... education, education, education.>> Yes, one of the things that the Republican Party insists we need more of, but constanty want to cut budgets for.
Originally Posted By DDMAN26 <<So there needs to be a culture shift on guns, and I think that's happened a little bit since Sandy Hook. >> Except there have been and still are Sandy Hook's every week in places like Chicago,in Detroit, St. Louis, El Paso that generally continue to be ignored by well just about everyone. I think because it took place in a more affluent area people have started to take the issue of guns more seriously.
Originally Posted By ecdc You keep repeating that, and I still have no idea what your point is or what you're trying to say.
