Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Isn't Ashcroft's state of mind or level of awareness irrelevant since the powers of the AG had been transferred to his second in command? No one had any place conducting business with him when he officially had no powers anyway.> You can't "transfer" that kind of power. You can only delegate it. Ashcroft retained the ability to overrule Comey, if he wanted to.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <<Neither Ashcroft, nor Mueller, nor even Gonzalez himself has disputed Comey's testimony.>> <I doubt they've been asked. At least, not by anybody who would print it.> I'm not sure what that second part is even supposed to mean; if Ashcroft or Mueller wanted to refute any part of Comey's testimony, surely the gentlemen of the press would have been happy to quote them. And Gonzalez certainly could have come out and refuted Comey, knowing how bad Comey has made him look. He hasn't. <And I'm sure most of Comey's testimony is dead on. From what I've read, he's a good, decent man. That said, I'm sure his memory of events is colored by his emotions - he probably resented the attempt to bypass his authority.> You're "sure?" Wow, a mindreader. Face facts, you have no clue. You'd LIKE his memory to be colored, but you have no real idea if it is or not. But it never hurts to weasel a little doubt in a reader's mind, eh? <You claimed that AG Ashcroft was "drugged-out", but Comey's testimony seems to indicate that the AG had plenty of awareness as to what was going on. Also, you're reading Mr Gonzales and Mr Cards minds when you say they went there hoping to slip something by a "drugged-out" Ashcroft.> Ashcroft roused himself later with great effort when Gonzalez and Card got there, according to Comey, but Comey also said this: "I was concerned that, given how ill I knew the attorney general was, that there might be an effort to ask him to overrule me when he was in no condition to that. . . ." (snip) "Mr. Ashcroft was lying down in the bed, the room was darkened. And I immediately began speaking to him, trying to orient him as to time and place, and try to see if he could focus on what was happening, and it wasn’t clear to me that he could. He seemed pretty bad off." So yes, Ashcroft seemed pretty bad off, and it wasn't even clear to Comey that he was focused, (and he was almost certainly on pain medication at a minimum). And if it seemed to Comey that Ashcroft was in no condition to be dealing with this at this point, why wouldn't the same thing have occurred to Gonzalez and Card? <I admit I haven't been impressed with AG Gonzales of late, but it's quite possible he went there with the best of intentions, that he thought the program was necessary and legal,> Why would he possibly think that when Ashcroft had already opined that it was not? <and that it would be better to get Justice onboard. Was it a smart move? No. But unless they tried to pressure Mr Ashcroft, I don't believe it was unethical.> What else do you call going to the hospital room of someone in the ICU, undoubtedly in pain, if not an attempt to pressure him? Why not wait till he's recovered? Also, they had at their disposal the man Ashcroft had designated the acting AG in his stead; why not go to him (a healthy Comey)? It's fascinating to watch you jump through hoops, however. I'll have to grab my popcorn for your response.
Originally Posted By jonvn They don't put healthy and alert people in the ICU, for god's sake. This whole idea is ridiculous.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh Where in any of the published reports did it say AG Ashcroft was in ICU? I just don't see it. Am I missing something?
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan <a href="http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/washington/stories/051607dnnat1aevesdrop.39b0e09.html" target="_blank">http://www.dallasnews.com/shar edcontent/dws/news/washington/stories/051607dnnat1aevesdrop.39b0e09.html</a>
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan From the transcripts: >>SCHUMER: And the attorney general was -- what was his condition? I mean, he had -- as I understand it, he had pancreatitis. He was very, very ill; in critical condition, in fact. COMEY: He was very ill. I don't know how the doctors graded his condition. This was -- this would have been his sixth day in intensive care. And as I said, I was shocked when I walked in the room and very concerned as I tried to get him to focus.<< Now, I suppose Douglas, you'll require doctor's notes to believe that Ashcroft was, indeed, in the intensive care unit. Do you believe Comey is lying, or are you just angling for anything to hang your hat on here?
Originally Posted By jonvn Again, they don't put people in the ICU for laughs. In fact, they don't put you in the hospital for A WEEK for laughs, either. So if you're in the ICU, you're pretty darned out of it and sick.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 one of the toughest people I know in this world - my Mom did, and it brought her untold pain.... wouldn't wish it on anyone
Originally Posted By jonvn Yes, it's horrible. If Ashcroft (whom I actually met in the Missouri state house while he was governor) was in the ICU for six days with it, he was not in any state to do anything but go towards the light. After a stay in the ICU, he probably was in the regular hospital for a few days as well. This whole story is yet one more revolting exercise in miscreant behavior by our lovely Administration.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Now, I suppose Douglas, you'll require doctor's notes to believe that Ashcroft was, indeed, in the intensive care unit.> No, I won't. I read the report that was linked to earlier in the thread, as well as some others, and none of them mentioned that he was in the ICU. <Do you believe Comey is lying, or are you just angling for anything to hang your hat on here?> I've already stated I don't believe Comey is lying. I don't need anything to hang my hat on.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Again, they don't put people in the ICU for laughs.> Since no one has claimed they do, your post is worthless.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh Meanwhile, we were told by a poster who supposedly has superior knowledge of the law that Monica Gooding would not have been offered immunity if she didn't have some dirt to spill, and people were sure she would point the finger at AG Gonzales. Didn't happen.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Since no one has claimed they do, your post is worthless." No. You simply claimed he may have been in an ok enough state to engage in any sort of official business. Which is simply a ridiculous comment.
Originally Posted By jonvn Of course it is. Saying someone who is in the ICU, which was rather commonly known can be able to do anything like you suggested is laughable.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh No one is suggesting it. Comey testimony makes it clear that not only was Mr Ashcroft capable of making his wishes clear, he did so.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <No, I won't. I read the report that was linked to earlier in the thread, as well as some others, and none of them mentioned that he was in the ICU. > None of these reports you read about Comey's testimony mentioned, um, Comey's testimony?? Seems odd. Of course, Kar2oonMan helpfully provided it: "COMEY: He was very ill. I don't know how the doctors graded his condition. This was -- this would have been his sixth day in intensive care. And as I said, I was shocked when I walked in the room and very concerned as I tried to get him to focus." His sixth day in intensive care. Which is, the "IC" in "ICU," you know.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <None of these reports you read about Comey's testimony mentioned, um, Comey's testimony??> Of course they did. They just did not reproduce it in total.
Originally Posted By jonvn "No one is suggesting it." No, you only implied it to the point of suggestion. I suppose you are no longer suggesting it, because you're now backpeddling, again. "Comey testimony makes it clear that not only was Mr Ashcroft capable of making his wishes clear" Again, he was in the ICU, and such a statement borders on rank idiocy.
