Originally Posted By ecdc "So I take it Passholder, that Charles Manson is more worthy of being alive then an unborn child tossed into the garbage because some wealthy woman decided that it didn't deserve to live because it was the wrong sex?" No, and no one said otherwise. I hold the same views as SPP (as in, I'm for a woman's right to choose but oppose the death penalty). It's not about "comparing" which life is worth more (as if that's somehow my judgment call to make) but about recognizing the difference between the two and comparing apples and oranges. I don't like abortion but I agree with Bill Clinton that it should safe, legal, and rare. I don't believe government should tell a woman, regardless of the circumstances, that she must carry her baby to term. As for the death penalty, the examples and questions put forth are all extreme examples. As I've already noted, I may not particularly care much about the life of one individual (Hitler, by way of example), but I think the need to kill another human being to feel that justice is served is barbaric. Again, why not just chop off hands for stealing - it's the same Old Testament concept - eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life. We're supposed to be better than that. I find it most ironic that those who are loudest about being "Christian" feel like it is their job to play God, pass judgment, and issue a death sentence to their fellow brothers and sisters. Christ was all about forgiveness and letting God handle things in due course. Some people deserve to be locked away forever; but it's not our job to say that the black crack dealer who killed someone and can't afford the dream team deserves the death penalty, while the white guy who can should just get life in prison or, worse, get off. When African Americans are disproportionately ending up with the death penalty, there's a problem.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "No, Eric's just dispensing some honest truths on us peons. At least that's what he keeps telling himself." berol, he's actually said this.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad <<<I can only assume that you place a higher value on female victims than male by the way you loaded up your question. >>> Interesting point. I don't place a higher value on female victims themselves, however I do certainly think some crimes or far more hienous than others. But its all good, you missed the whole point of the post friend.
Originally Posted By Eric Paddon I asked a legitimate question that I think cuts through the nonsense behind the slogan of reducing the slaughter of unborn children to a slogan about a "right to choose". The only difference is that a butcherer of human beings gets free room and board at the taxpayers expense and still gets a parole hearing every seven years where it is possible that someone dumb might vote to let him go free again, while the innocent child who was too much an inconvenience to some rich woman's lifestyle is dead. Pretty much encapsulates things in a nutshell from my standpoint.
Originally Posted By barboy No, DVC I got your question to me---in fact I started to write an answer but I scrapped it half way because what I was writing would have been too irrelevant or unclear. Give me a little more time and I will try to be fair in my reply.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad <<< When African Americans are disproportionately ending up with the death penalty, there's a problem. >>> Just what do you think the problem is here my friend? I would LOVE to know. And I am not being sarcastic, I really do not have a truly educated opinion on THIS issue. But I would love to gain some insight on WHY this is the case. 90% of the inmates are from 10% of the population. How can this be?
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Pretty much encapsulates things in a nutshell from my standpoint." Big deal. As I said, I'm at peace with my outlook and really don't feel like I need to justify it to anyone. I know how I came to these conclusions and it all works for me.
Originally Posted By barboy Ok DVC dad, here it is: Those who starved, experimented, hanged(or more accurately choked), burned and drowned ect. countless back in Nazi Germany and her occupations deserve to die---that is clear, very clear to me. Those like the BTK killer deserve to die also---to me that is a no brainer. But the ones who have limited thier cruelty to fewer victims should stay in prison; this time money/taxes has nothing to do with my position. "I would be interested to see what opinion would be if a criminal brutally murdered your mother or sister or wife or daughter in the worst way." Now, if someone whom I loved was gunned down while paying for a Slurpy at 7-11, no, there is no way whatsoever I could wish that the state kill on behalf of say my wife or brother because I deplore the procedure and mothods used. I am completely sickened by the procedure used to kill than the actual killing itself. The system, procedure and method for putting down inmates make me feel unclean, sinful and less alive because I have paid taxes and ultimately contributed.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad Ok. That makes sense barboy. It speaks a great deal to your moral and ethical character. I'm being serious, not at all sarcastic. It is interesting that you can have compassion for a criminal, even one that would take the life of your direct loved ones. I respect that.
Originally Posted By ecdc "90% of the inmates are from 10% of the population. How can this be?" I don't pretend to have all the answers on this one, DVC_dad. It is a tough issue. I appreciate the sincerity of your question and hope I can answer effectively with the limited info I have. Based on what I've read, most people who campaign for rights for a segment of society almost always come to the conclusion that class is the deciding factor. An example would be Martin Luther King, Jr. He campaigned for race rights, but by the end of his life took on poverty issues, because he believed they were inseperably linked. Minorities, particularly African Americans, perpetrate the most violent crime in the country, despite the fact that they are in the minority. It's an undisputable fact that unfortunately leads some to justify ongoing racism. Again, this is a class issue, however, and should not be mistaken for a race issue, IMO. In short, too often black=poverty. There's a lot of information out there, but I believe the reasons can be traced back as far as the 1920s, and perhaps even back to the failure of reconstruction in the 1860s and 1870s. No kidding. Blacks were a segment of society that were legally, culturally, and socially descriminated against, making it nearly impossible to get ahead, though a few managed it. From the 1870s onward, numerous laws existed for the sole purpose of not allowing blacks to gain work, gain better housing, etc. There was no such thing as separate but equal. The Ku Klux Klan was born after the Civil War to keep blacks "in their place" and paranoia was rampant about black men pursuing white women. An example of how difficult it was comes in the 1920s, when government sanctioned "red lining" occurs. The automobile didn't just replace the horse and buggy - it radically and forever changed the way Americans live. Suburbia was born, and the government passed Title I - an attempt to urbanize cities and improve living conditions. A noble goal, right? Well, in reality it destroyed neighborhoods and pushed segregation to new heights. It's called red lining because bureaucrats would take a map of a community and draw red lines around segregated areas. Again, I can't stress enough how huge the impact of the automobile was. It led to "white flight" - whites moving to the suburbs and left minorities in poor neighborhoods. Prior to this, housing segregation existed but not nearly at the level it reached in the 30s, 40s, and 50s. Part of Martin Luther King's movement in Chicago, shortly before he died was to improve housing and allow middle-class blacks to move to the suburbs, something they were usually legally prevented from doing. To make a long story short, the government created an environment where most minorities, frankly, lead sorry lives that go nowhere. They are born in poverty, live in poverty, and die in poverty. It's how most people in this world live. We often hear people saying "well, rise above it." If only it were that simple. Imagine the plight of a single black woman in inner-city Chicago. She gets a job interview for a decent job. She has three kids and no car. She relies on friends or public transportation. She's also got to get to the public library or a Kinkos to type and print her resume, since she doesn't have a home computer. Does she have the book on her shelf that I have on how to write a good resume? Probably not. Who watches her kids when she goes to the interview? Does she have books on interviewing skills that I have? Again, most likely not. What kind of clothes does she have to wear? Will they look as nice as other applicants? We're all conditioned by our circumstances by what we find pleasing - will the white man interviewing her subconsciously be pre-disposed to not hire her because he doesn't find her as attractive as a white applicant? Last month, her baby had to go to the doctor and she has no health care; did she have money to pay the phone bill so she even gets the call to go to the interview? How was her education growing up in inner-city Chicago? Did she misspell anything on the application or resume? Did her school have computers? Does she have money for the bus or L-train? And on, and on, and on. I'm not saying it's impossible, but those people who are the "haves" have no idea what it's like to be a "have not" and the hurdles one might face. I was fortunate to get a good education, I own a car and a computer, etc. These are all things I take for granted that are a huge advantage to me just to go to a simple job interview and perform without embarrassing myself. Our government (I believe) started the process of poor neighborhoods based on race and it's no wonder minorities resort to crime and violence as desperate measures, or drugs or gangs as escapes. I don't justify it and believe criminals should be punished and locked up. But I'm also not surprised by it. It's a problem that perpetuates itself today. Case in point: My wife and I just bought our first house in the suburbs. We're moving from a poor neighborhood in the city. We moved here because it was close to my work, our street and apartment is very nice, and it's an excellent deal on our rent that allowed us to save for a house. But just a block or two over, it's a mess. We're tired of seeing the overgrown grass no one bothers to mow, the garbage in the front yard, the peeling paint, the rusted bikes, etc. Even an understanding "liberal" like myself contributes to the problem I can admit it, I'd much rather get my family out of here to a good neighborhood with good schools than stay try and tough it out, pitch in and help. It's too overwhelming a problem and I don't want my kids here. It's unfair, it's not right, but it's the truth. I'm not sure what the solution is but I'm sympathetic to causes like affirmative action, government social programs, etc, though I think we need more regulation and volunteerism.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad Your answer is terrific. I have wondered how cultural differences contribute to the problem.
Originally Posted By bubsmom As an "outsider", following this thread, I'm utterly blown away by ecdc's, poignant and well executed written thoughts. I rarely will read through much of the lengthy banter in WE, but this... Exceptional points.... Whether others agree or not, is not the issue.. the point being; you are obviously passionate about your opinions and I appreciate your thoughts.
Originally Posted By Dirk_D_from_Oregon Sounds to me like ecdc is making vicims out of everyone. If you really want to make in in America, even if your poor and black you can do it. The examples are everywhere.
Originally Posted By ecdc Thanks, bubsmom. Your kind words mean a lot. It's an issue I've spent a lot of time thinking about and in my history studies in school and my own research, I've focused on the Civil Rights movement.
Originally Posted By Mr_Fluff My opposition to the death penalty comes not necessarily from concern for the convicted but from the corrosive effect it has on society as a whole. If as a society we believe that the killing of a human being is wrong we should lead by example. I'm quite sure that if a member of my family were deliberately killed I would wish death upon the person responsible, but I don't believe that to indulge this instinct would serve the best interests of the country as a whole. Rather than acting as a deterrent I believe that the death penalty simply serves to further cheapen human life and is demeaning to us all. The best solution is to lock these criminals up to prevent them doing any further harm.
