Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>So this shooter is being properly vilified correct?<< What is happening is that we will learn all about him, and he'll be a post-mortem celebrity. I understand that news needs to be reported, but the media should stop making "stars" out of these maniacs. (Fat chance of that, huh?)
Originally Posted By jonvn Not taking your medicine is no excuse. This is why people who are mentally ill need to be basically locked up. If you can not be counted on to take your meds and you are so out of it you'd do something like this, you need to be separated from society before you hurt somone.
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Originally Posted By RoadTrip I guess I have to disagree with most folks here, even though I think they are all wonderful people and insightful thinkers. The person whose belief pretty much matches mine is plpeters70. Sorry folks, but the country is not going to hell in a hand basket. People are getting married later in life, but once married they stay married at about the same percentage as has existed for the past 40 years. The great majority of married people do take their marital vows seriously. The percentage of those reporting infidelity has decreased substantially during the past decade. Births to unwed teenage mothers are still too high, but it is lower than it has been in decades. The percentage of people attending church services weekly was higher in 2000 than it was in 1940, 1950, 1970, 1980, and 1990. There was a little blip up in 1960, but that was relatively short lived. Source: <a href="http://www.christianitytoday.com/yc/2001/003/15.88.html" target="_blank">http://www.christianitytoday.c om/yc/2001/003/15.88.html</a> The children of today are not spoiled and coddled any more than they used to be. In fact I would say the major problem with parenting today is neglect, and amazingly enough most of the kids raised in environments of neglect still turn out OK. There have always been those who have a vendetta against society and express it in the ways common at the time. During my life time this has included lynching black people, burning down black churches, assassinating national leaders (JFK, Robert Kennedy, Martin Luther King, and attempts on both Ford and Reagan), burning down your own community and killing your neighbors during riots. Now many of the methods previously used by people with vendettas against society have quieted. In their place we have the horrible history of mass school shootings. But even this is not completely new. Massacres, in schools and other places are not unique to the last few decades. In 1927 a deranged school board member killed 45 and injured 58 people by bombing a school. There have been many other examples of mass killings in U.S. over the past 150 years. This is nothing new: <<We also have had massacres -- some with guns, some with other means --- in more recent years. 1890: Wounded Knee, S.D., 153 to 300 dead. 1927: Bath County, Mich., a school board member killed 45 and injured 58 in a bombing. 1921: Tulsa, Okla., race riot and neighborhood burning left between 39 and 300 dead. 1892: 35 died in a clash during a steel union lockout. 1885: 28 died in Rock Springs, Wyo., battle between white and Chinese miners. 1991: 23 died in Luby’s cafeteria massacre in Killeen, Texas. 1984: 22 were killed in a shooting at a San Diego McDonald’s. 1986: 15 died in the Edmond, Okla., postal shootings. 1966: The Texas sniper killed 15. 1983: 13 were shot to death in a Seattle gambling club.>> Source: <a href="http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/footnotes/2007/04/virginia-tech-shootings-in-historical.asp" target="_blank">http://frontier.cincinnati.com /blogs/footnotes/2007/04/virginia-tech-shootings-in-historical.asp</a> So are things that much worse today? I really doubt they are. I'm not even going dump on the media and say it is their fault. Although I think the media give these events way too much play, present day coverage doesn't come close to the breathless excesses common to early 20th century newspaper reporting. Would I rather be alive now than in my parent’s time? Absolutely. Would I rather be alive in the time of my children than during my own? Absolutely once again. Every era has its troubles, but overall life in America consistently gets better generation after generation. I don’t expect that to stop any time soon.
Originally Posted By dshyates But for all those we didn't have Nancy Grace to explain how horrible it was yada..yada..yada. I was living in Denver for Columbine, and my wife and 2 year old daughter were next door to the school when it happened. They were under police lockdown until 7pm that evening. We left Denver because my Ex thought the big city was too over the top. I now live 35 min. from Virginia Tech and as a news photog had to go cover it. A gas station, .1 mile from my house, was blown off the map, killing 4. It was a propane leak. 3 min. later I was helping carry really beat up , burnt, broken people out of the flaming mess. Shizzle happens. everywhere everyday. I see a tweek with a shotgun like I see a propane leak. A shockwave in the fabric of life. I can't really get any madder at these guys that a tornado or lightening bolt.
Originally Posted By metalman >>I guess this guy forgot that he was supposed to wait until he put on a badge before he randomly shot innocent people.<< *plants "Do Not Feed Troll" sign in ground*
Originally Posted By jonvn "the country is not going to hell in a hand basket." Yeah, it really is. I'm sorry, but people are simply scoring lower on standarized tests, for example. Education is failing to create people in this country who are critical thinkers, and we are losing our industry to people overseas who are willing to work harder and be smarter than we are. Meanwhile, our streets are filled with violent psychos who are allowed to walk around because we don't want to inconvenience them with forced incarceration. It apparently has to become so bad that it's almost irreversible before people start to realize what is happening. It would be nice for once if everything did not have to become a full blown crisis before something was done about things in this country.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Yeah, it really is. I'm sorry, but people are simply scoring lower on standarized tests, for example.>> Wrong again my pessimistic friend. Average SAT scores have increased from 509 in 1972 to 520 in 2005. Source: <a href="http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0883611.html" target="_blank">http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/ A0883611.html</a> What bothers me is that so many well meaning people buy the doom and gloom crap. Whether it is DVC_dad talking about declining church attendance or jonvn talking about declining test scores, the FACTS do not support their statements. We have been sold a bunch of doom and gloom crap that just does not exist. Life in the United States continues to improve for the great majority of citizens and our biggest threat seems to be the unwarranted overriding pessimism of so many well meaning and intelligent people.
Originally Posted By ecdc Agree 100% RT. What makes people think it's all falling apart is coverage of tragedy. News coverage of crime has skyrocketed while crime itself has more or less stayed the same. One type of violent crime will go up while another goes down. It's also a rule of thumb that every generation has to think the following one is a mess. Moralists insist things are so much worse, but the scarce statistics that are available suggest otherwise. Sex, pregnancy, pornography - all existed 100 years ago and people thought things were falling apart then too.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Average SAT scores have increased from 509 in 1972 to 520 in 2005." OK, well, here are some stories. IF you want to look at them. <a href="http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/stories/2007/08/28/sat_0828.html" target="_blank">http://www.ajc.com/metro/conte nt/metro/stories/2007/08/28/sat_0828.html</a> <a href="http://educationalissues.suite101.com/article.cfm/sat_scores_drop" target="_blank">http://educationalissues.suite 101.com/article.cfm/sat_scores_drop</a> <a href="http://educationalissues.suite101.com/blog.cfm/1501" target="_blank">http://educationalissues.suite 101.com/blog.cfm/1501</a> <a href="http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/2007/08/28/sat-scores-drop-for-the-second-year-in-a-row.html" target="_blank">http://www.usnews.com/articles /education/2007/08/28/sat-scores-drop-for-the-second-year-in-a-row.html</a> it's wavering. Some blame a new sat test, and others point to some act scores that are opposite the trend. But overall, scores are lower. Further, I don't know if your figures take into account how the scoring now is higher because of changes than it was in 1975. From an article in 1995: The College Board, the New York nonprofit company that oversees the test, has adjusted its scoring system for the first time since 1941, when the average score was 500 math and 500 verbal, the midpoint of the 200-to-800 grading scale. Since then, scores have steadily declined, to an average of 424 in the verbal portion of the test and 479 in the math portion. <a href="http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990CE4DB133BF931A35757C0A963958260" target="_blank">http://query.nytimes.com/gst/f ullpage.html?res=990CE4DB133BF931A35757C0A963958260</a>
Originally Posted By jonvn "is coverage of tragedy." You know, they had the news back before 1993. "It's also a rule of thumb that every generation has to think the following one is a mess. " "Sex, pregnancy, pornography - all existed 100 years ago and people thought things were falling apart then too." I don't see a problem with any of those things. It's not that sort of thing causing problems. 20 year olds are not the generation after mine. Be that as it may,
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<OK, well, here are some stories. IF you want to look at them.>> I looked at them. As you mention, in many if not all cases it is difficult to isolate the cause behind score changes whether they are increasing or decreasing. You not only have the change in the tests to account for, but also the fact that a greater percentage of students are taking the test than ever did before. As college seems to become more and more of a necessity for even low level jobs, students who wouldn't have attempted the SAT in the past are now taking it in the hope that they can get in to some college somewhere. Obviously having more people at the lower end taking the test is going to skew results downward. But whether scores are increasing or decreasing in absolute numbers, any analysis shows that the magnitude of change is very small and more than likely meaningless over the long term. I have no doubt that in certain urban districts (the article you linked to mentioned Atlanta) the scores are dropping dramatically. With immigration and other issues causing middle-class flight to the suburbs, the inner cities are increasingly left with students of limited ability. Sucks to be them. But they are not the whole story.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 I live 15 minutes east of NIU in the far western burbs of Chicago -- and I have to admit, every time I hear of this stuff I get angry. This time my daughters chorus teacher lost a daughter - and my oldest daughter talked to one of her friends ( a senior there ) by cell phone who left the building minutes before the shooting. She was talking to him as the story was just hitting the wires. I realize there is virtually no security in the world that can stop this and by all accounts NIU did an excellentjob of communication and getting there quickly. However, I don't care if nuts like this have no crimial record. If someone purchases 4 guns from one shop in a short period of time on a new gun registration card - should this not trigger something? We have enforcement out the wazoo to make sure someone isn't doing 35 in a 30 zone, we have $250 fines if someone smokes within 15 feet of an entrance to a building -- we are starting to legislate anything and everything we can -- however no bells go off when that string of events occurs ? It likely does not stop most of this nonsense, but even if it caused once for someone to look at it and say ---hmm what gives? Another sad day for the country -- and yes, I do agree with Jonvn...I do believe people are getting stupider. The ability to put together a cohesive paragraph on anything seems beyond the average student. Yes SAT's may be going up but it also could be because as opposed to 1972 - more foreign students are taking the SAT's - in inner city schools such a woeful % ( usually < 5-10% max) are taking the SAT's -so scores do not reflect an average student anyway. Even then, test scores are not the be all end all intelligence wise. I do believe the constant bombardment of kids from a young age with video games that show them how to steal cars and shoot police, violence at alarming rates on TV - whether on TV shows or the news etc -- while most kids are able to determine right from wrong -- a centain % of the population cannot. And this constant assult on their senses ismore than they can deal with. It has come out now that this kid was a cutter -- has had issues before and off his medication. The 24 x 7 world we live in today is tough for anyone -- for people with even a little less ability to deal with the pace...the lines between reality and fantasy I belive become blurred rather easily. I don't have a solution as we likely can never turn back the clock to a simpler time - it's just not that easy -- too many factors... but I felt like ranting a bit on this topic as it hits close to home
Originally Posted By DVC_dad Interesting comments Trippy, and with sources too. Ok I'll buy all of it with one exception. I cannot recall our youth shooting up schools back in say the late 70's early to mid 80's. I don't attibute this to people not going to church. The fact is, I think our parents and our youth have problems today that perhaps I didn't have when I was a kid. That's all I'm saying. And I typically lay more blame on the parent, when it comes to the kid's problems. I totally agree that neglect is the problem. Kids are left to raise themselves today.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad <<<If someone purchases 4 guns from one shop in a short period of time on a new gun registration card - should this not trigger something? >>> I agree totally and I'm a big 2nd amendment guy. I don't buy into the concept that registration is the first step to losing the 2nd amendment rights. It should be more difficult to purchase weapons.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>However, I don't care if nuts like this have no crimial record. If someone purchases 4 guns from one shop in a short period of time on a new gun registration card - should this not trigger something? We have enforcement out the wazoo to make sure someone isn't doing 35 in a 30 zone, we have $250 fines if someone smokes within 15 feet of an entrance to a building -- we are starting to legislate anything and everything we can -- however no bells go off when that string of events occurs ?<< And what does Bush say after something like this? What's his great solution to the problem? Pray.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>The fact is, I think our parents and our youth have problems today that perhaps I didn't have when I was a kid. That's all I'm saying. And I typically lay more blame on the parent, when it comes to the kid's problems. I totally agree that neglect is the problem. Kids are left to raise themselves today.<< I agree, but it's not as simple as blaming parents. Sure, some parents are lazy and bad at what they do. But again, these people have always existed. Remember, there's always been two Americas - mass communication just makes us more aware of the second-half now. Second, people work harder for less and less. I won't share the story of my grandparents for the millionth time, but even 30 or 40 years ago, a blue collar income could provide a modest lifestyle. That's simply impossible today. Plenty of parents are out trying to do the right thing for their kids by working two or three jobs; it's either that or stay home to make sure their kids are doing their homework...in the cardboard box they live in. Finally, I think it's worth reiterating that most of these problems have always existed. People point to certain statistics as evidence without really analyzing the information. Teen pregnancy is supposedly up; but teen pregnancy was a much more hidden phenomenon 50 or 100 years ago. Divorce has gone up, we constantly hear from moralists and religionists. But that doesn't mean people had happier lives or happier marriages. It perhaps means that the stigma of divorce, coupled with fewer options for women to support themselves, kept people in loveless, miserable marriages. Is that a good environment for raising children? I won't deny that the world is in some ways a very different place. That brings new challenges that we haven't seen before. It might cause people to insist the sky is falling, because something that hasn't happened before implies that a line has been crossed. But with new challenges come new opportunities. Revisiting the divorce issue, now women have new chances. They aren't forced to stay in abusive relationships because they have no other option. Sex has always existed, but now it's more in the open. Teenagers can get access to good information and protection, instead of taking their chances like they used to. People can be more open and frank about their sexuality instead of having to hide it, particularly gay people. Some people see this as a sign of the fall of civilization; I see it as a sign of a better civilization.
Originally Posted By ecdc On the issue of stupidity and people getting dumber, again, this goes back to two Americas. We see people getting dumber because we're more aware of the other half. There's always been a lower class. But literacy is higher than it's ever been. 120 years ago, 90% of African Americans were illiterate in this country. People do get their information in different ways. Some of it is more abbreviated (people watch TV rather than read books). But I don't see people necessarily being any dumber today. As for test scores, that's a red herring. So much has changed over the years, it's apples and oranges. Kids today have FAR, FAR more homework than kids did 20 years ago. I guess I just think people like to complain. They complain that test scores are down and kids are dumber (but not THEIR kids, mind you - it's always someone else, isn't it?) but then turn around and complain that kids grow up too fast, they have too much homework and they aren't allowed to be kids. Which is it?
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Ok, this one is very sad indeed, and it is one of the many reasons why I live in Europe. Ok, we have had a real increase in stabbings in the UK in the last 2 years, with one teen a week killed in London last year. Not good. But thankfully there has been only one gun incident in UK schools in the last 30 years (Dunblaine in the late 80's) and it still rocks us to the core. This is so sad, and the crime rate in the US has certainly made us a little nervous about our trip tomorrow. As for the points on society, I do think it is breaking down and dumbing down. The lawyers and politicians, as well as society's view make gentle spanking frowned upon. In fact, my SIL who is a play leader in the UK is not even allowed to tell a child they are being bad, even if they are biting another child. What happens? Unruly teens. I did wonder if it meant I was just getting older, but when I see LPers moaning about how boring the Universe of Energy is, the American Adventure and even PotC, then I know the world is dumbing down IMHO.
Originally Posted By Mr X Sorry bro...I don't consider myself particularly dumb but I've ALWAYS found Energy to be boring. American Adventure was "okay", but not as great as I think you think it is. I don't really think that's a great analogy to be honest. As for the crime rates, yup it is scary. Sad to say, the gun control situation in America is, quite frankly, out of control. That's why you rarely hear stories like this out of the U.K., Canada, Japan, and other places where you basically can NOT own a gun. Don't be nervous about your trip though, I'm sure you guys will be fine and have a great time!
