Originally Posted By jonvn "Its useless as you cannot accept anyone having a view against Israel and the country's government and military aggression." And this is why I don't believe a word you say on the matter. I have repeatedly asked you to explain, you refuse. It's obvious as to why.
Originally Posted By johnno52 Its quite obvious you can't or don't won't to accept anyone's views against Israel's aggression. I just think you want to be argumentative on this subject and refuse to accept other peoples views. I have clearly stated my opinions on the conflict on this and the other thread. You are looking for little errors so you can pick at them and prove that you're views are they only ones right. I hand it to you that you seem to be very knowledgeble in many matters, but that doesn't make you right every time!
Originally Posted By jonvn "Its quite obvious you can't or don't won't to accept anyone's views against Israel's aggression. " Yes, this is all you can say, while I ask for your opinion. As far as I can tell, you think Israel is populated with "zionists from europe" who are systematically persecuting the poor innocent palestinians. That's about it, right? It doesn't matter. If you can't even speak your ideas, let alone defend them, they really can't have a whole lot of merit.
Originally Posted By jonvn I mean, it's ok. You don't have to. I'm not going to overcome years of conditioning with a few words no matter what.
Originally Posted By johnno52 According to official records, 367,845 Jews and 33,304 non-Jews immigrated legally between 1920 and 1945.[32] It was estimated that another 50–60,000 Jews and a small number of non-Jews immigrated illegally during this period.[33] Immigration accounts for most of the increase of Jewish population, while the non-Jewish population increase was largely natural. These figures have been supported by later studies
Originally Posted By johnno52 If you want more you can view Wikipedia its easy. I won't discuss it with you, I will just post abstracts instead.
Originally Posted By jonvn I am not interested in abstracts unless they relate to your opinion. I can find abstracts myself.
Originally Posted By johnno52 >As far as I can tell, you think Israel is populated with "zionists from europe"< answer is in post 25
Originally Posted By johnno52 >As far as I can tell, you think Israel is populated with "zionists from europe"< Population of Jews in Palestine 1922 83,790 11.14% of population 1942 484,408 29.9% "
Originally Posted By jonvn What is touche? Your posting of these numbers? No. It's me not responding because all you can do is put up these numbers, which is not what i asked.
Originally Posted By jonvn You see what you did is akin to putting up a powerpoint slide with numbers on it with no information to go along with it. What are you trying to say with these numbers? 100 different things could be said about them. That is why I can't really respond to them.
Originally Posted By johnno52 >As far as I can tell, you think Israel is populated with "zionists from europe"< You made this statement and I wanted to show you the Jewish population in Palestine in 1922 and 1942 from the census (400,000 increase). So with these facts unless there was a massive baby boom it shows that there was a great influx of Jewish immigrants into Palestine. This was one of the factors that contributed to the hostilities. Keep on baiting me and I'll keep giving you facts from other sources as you cannot accept the fact that the Israelis are just as much to blame as the Palestinians on this conflict.
Originally Posted By jonvn I'm not baiting you. I'm asking you to explain your ideas. As to the influx of people in the 30s and 40s, of course that happened. You do realize what was going on in Europe at the time to the semitic peoples who lived there, right? And do you know they had nowhere to go? Ever hear of "Voyage of the damned?" It's one reason why Israel is there now. Go look it up, and you can maybe begin to understand. These people you say who caused a problem were fleeing death and torture. And no one would take them in. You explain that to me. You can use your words. I shouldn't have to coax it out of you.
Originally Posted By johnno52 You are right and I agree, the US and Canada were two of many countries that turned back many Jews. My point is, was the immigration allowed into Palestine so the Western countries didn't have to take them? (2) Wasn't this done at the expense of the apportioned Arab lands? Peoples of Europe all settled into their respective areas due to this "death and torture" from outside sources. It is written throughout history. The Mongel hordes completely changed the ethnic settlements in Asia and Europe. It seems that Western news media has to coddle the Israelis because of their plights throughout history. My birth country has had so many invaders that Arab, Semitic and European influences are evident throughout the population. How many Russians died in the 2nd WW? Wars, hatred and religious persecution have been going on for thousands of years. I personally would have cleared out and given Germany's Prussian State to the European Jews. Sounds crazy? Well would they have been any worse off?
Originally Posted By jonvn "My point is, was the immigration allowed into Palestine so the Western countries didn't have to take them?" Not that much immigration was allowed. You are talking a few thousand, and a few million ended up dead. And, if you actually looked up Voyage of the Damned, you'd know what I mean. These are not really people from europe. They are semitic people from the mideast who were taken and forced to live in Europe. Why do you think it is called "anti-semitism?" "Peoples of Europe all settled into their respective areas due to this "death and torture" from outside sources" That is false. You had a regime in power who was rampaging through europe having as one specific intent the murder of these people. You are attempting to suggest that what the Nazis were doing was nothing special. Of course it was not. And your blithe hand waving of "it happens" ignores the deaths of millions of innocent people who were trapped with noplace to go. "My birth country has had so many invaders" Which is where, again? But this is not just invaders. This is people being scooped up and murdered for being Jews. This was being done not just by Germans, but with the cooperation of local people as well. You are attempting to suggest that somehow that this is just OK. Well, it's not ok. Having people murdered after a few centuries of hatred because there was no place for these people to go to is not fine, and it is why Israel was created, and created for the people who are from the area originally. "I personally would have cleared out and given Germany's Prussian State to the European Jews. " Yes, you hear this from many people, how we should have given some part of Germany to them. That would not have exactly helped during the 30s and 40s, would it. Aside from that, Jews are not from Germany. They are from the mideast. The reason this happened in the 30s and 40s is not some one off thing that just popped up. It is the culmination of centuries of anti-semitic activities. And somehow the people of Europe would suddenly have these folks take a piece of Germany, yes? That would be just fine? Except there are Jews all over the world. There used to be a lot in Arab nations, actually. So, we have this influx of Jews from around the world in the middle of Europe, where they are not from, and don't belong. Of course. Many of the Jews who live in Arab nations are there because they were kicked out of their Arab homelands. They are there because, again, there is no place else for them to go. It's not that Israelis are being coddled, it is that Israel is a place for Jewish refugees around the world to go for a safe haven. You seem to not want that. And to this day, that is what it is. There is still an influx of people from places such as Russia where Jews to this day suffer from some pretty horrible anti-semitism. I suppose they should just sit and be persecuted? Israel is where it is because that is where it beongs, it is where the people are from, and they have noplace else to go. This is why they are not leaving. The others in the area, the Arabs and the Persians should have taken this opportunity to welcome as guests these people who needed a place to live, and who originate from this area. Instead, they have acted like criminals from the 1940s, onward. This is due strictly to anti-Jewish feelings. Al Qaeda, in fact, is an outgrowth of the Muslim Brotherhood, a group with strong Nazi ties. This history is plain for everyone to see. This is some of why Israel exists. That there are those who say Israel should not exist, considering what has gone on speaks very poorly for those who try to suggest then that they are not anti-Jewish. Because by suggesting that it should not, it ignores a few centuries of rather wretched treatment that goes on to this day.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Many of the Jews who live in Arab nations are there because they were kicked out of their Arab homelands" I meant many of the Jews living in Israel are there because they were kicked out of their Arab homelands.
Originally Posted By jonvn Here are some quotes by Arab leaders: QUOTES: Support for Nazism was not limited to the former Mufti. Here are some quotes from Arab leaders on Hitler, and Nazism: "We admired the Nazis. We were immersed in reading Nazi literature and books . . . . We were the first who thought of [an Arab] translation of Mein Kampf. Anyone who lived in Damascus at that time was witness to the Arab inclination toward Nazism," -- Sami al-Joundi, one of the founders of Syria's ruling Ba'ath Party. "My dear Hitler, I congratulate you from the bottom of my heart. Even if you appear to have been defeated, in reality you are the victor. You succeeded in creating dissensions between Churchill, the old man, and his allies, the Sons of Satan. Germany will win because her existence is necessary to preserve the world balance. Germany will be reborn in spite of the Western and Eastern powers. There will be no peace unless Germany once again becomes what she was." -- Anwar Sadat Then there is this web page: <a href="http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/antiholo/arabnazi.html" target="_blank">http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca /antiholo/arabnazi.html</a> So don't try and tell me about how it's just like anyone else. The Arabs in the area are simply trying to kill Jews, and they are trying whatever method they can to do so. The reason you get a lot of "coddling" as you say is because most educated people realize this is what is going on.
