Originally Posted By wahooskipper Tom, that environment has existed for hundreds of years. Way before America was even a glint in anyone's eyes.
Originally Posted By gadzuux >> Who cares if we have TERRORISTS tortured in another country. << Me. I care. It's a violation of my morality and beliefs - it's a violation of what it means to be an american. It's offensive. >> I don't for a second. << Our treatment of our enemy's prisoners has a direct bearing on the amount of danger we face. Our government has increased our danger - not just the military, but "US". Yet you feel "safer". Why? >> Maybe you will feel different Gadzuux if a terrorist wipes out SF and kills a few hundred thousand people. << You can't justify inhuman actions based on hypotheticals, yet you do it all the time. "Well what if ..."
Originally Posted By Beaumandy <<Me. I care. It's a violation of my morality and beliefs - it's a violation of what it means to be an american. It's offensive.>> So your willing to let a terrorist kill more Americans just so you can say your morality and beliefs were satisfied? Not a good plan Gadzuux, especially when these terrorists who you are so concerned about would kill you first since your a liberal breaking pretty much every rule Allah has set up. <<Our treatment of our enemy's prisoners has a direct bearing on the amount of danger we face. Our government has increased our danger - not just the military, but "US". Yet you feel "safer". Why?>> BS. The terrorists were cutting off heads and killing innocents with or without us being mean to them after we capture them. You think if we tell the terrorists that we will be nice to them once we get them, that they will stop with their terrrists attacks and video beheadings? I know I always say it, but this liberal view of the war on terror is exactly why America refuses to let them be in power now.
Originally Posted By bboisvert OMG, this site needs a "killfile" button. Please don't poke the troll.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan I don't know why this is so hard to understand: Torturing prisoners puts our soldiers, and the rest of us, at greater risk. It whips up anti-American sentiment, drives a wedge between us and would-be allies and worst of all, makes US more like THEM ('them' being terrorists who would torture, murder innocents, etc.). The person that could be "okay" with is seriously off track, IMHO.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper If someone had my wife or son kidnapped and hidden somewhere and I was able to get my hands on an accomplice, I am pretty sure I would do anything in order to get her to safety. Anything. Call me derailed.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Well, that's sort fo a revenge fantasy scenario, and not at all related to the real issue at hand, which is the US' position on torture.
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Originally Posted By wahooskipper It isn't a real stretch. If someone was threatening my family I have every reason to belive I would torture an accomplice in order to get my family back. If that is what it took, then that is what I would do. In many of these cases death means nothing to these people. Hell, they'd blow themselves up in a heart beat. Of course, that is a nice, quick death. Facing a few hours of pain may not seem so heroic to them. I'm not sure someone who isn't a soldier (which these people are not by an standard) deserves the POW status and the protections afforded a prisoner of war.
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Originally Posted By wahooskipper As I've said, it isn't cut and dry but I don't for one minute think Beau lacks the understanding of America because he believes torture to be an effective tool. Nor do I believe I am un-American.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Your OK with just leting him sit there as we offer him more cookies and milk hoping he talks?<< Yes. That is exactly what I said, wasn't it. That we should make terrorists comfortable, put them up at a Hilton, feed them snacks all day. You ought to try reading and responding to what people actually say rather than constructing phony arguments.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer >>but I don't for one minute think Beau lacks the understanding of America because he believes torture to be an effective tool<< Dictatorships are effective tools as well, but they aren't exactly the American ideal, are they?
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan As I've said, it isn't cut and dry but I don't for one minute think Beau lacks the understanding of America because he believes torture to be an effective tool.<< Do we have evidence that torture is an effective tool? Because there's plenty of evidence to the contrary. Probably why the issue was dealt with at the Geneva Conventions. >>If someone was threatening my family I have every reason to belive I would torture an accomplice in order to get my family back. If that is what it took, then that is what I would do.<< Meanwhile, back on the battlefield, torture is something the US rejects as a matter of policy. That's why those involved with Abu Ghraib (sp?) were punished.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan "Torture anywhere is an affront to human dignity everywhere. " -- President Bush <a href="http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/06/20030626-3.html" target="_blank">http://www.whitehouse.gov/news /releases/2003/06/20030626-3.html</a>
Originally Posted By Beaumandy <<Do we have evidence that torture is an effective tool? Because there's plenty of evidence to the contrary. Probably why the issue was dealt with at the Geneva Conventions.>> Yep, It works according to the guys in the goverment who deal with this stuff. You notice that even McCain says we should be able to use it as a LAST resort.... in other words, it works.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper When I tortured my little brother I always got what I was after. Torture was, in fact, an effective tool. I wish we could live in Fantasyland where everything went right (except Pooh's Playground) but I am really hoping for a Tomorrowland and in today's day and age it is becoming harder to do that. I am 35 years old and I never, in my wildest dreams...even after talking with my parents about the nuclear war drills...thought I would see in America what we saw on 9/11. Maybe it is going to take another hit on US soil for us to reconsider what we would and would not do to protect ourselves.
