Originally Posted By TomSawyer <a href="http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/military/july-dec05/torture_12-02.html" target="_blank">http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb /military/july-dec05/torture_12-02.html</a> SEN. JOHN McCAIN: First, subjecting prisoners to abuse leads to bad intelligence because under torture a detainee will tell his interrogator anything to make the pain stop. Second, mistreatment of our prisoners endangers U.S. troops, who might be captured by the enemy, if not in this war then in the next.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy <<You have no idea what it means to be an American, do you, Beau?>> Yes, It means defending the country from attacks. Your liberal world view not only doesn't keep us safe, but it let's terrorists know that they can play " the system " once they get caught by us. Mohammed and Akbar need to know that if we catch them and they have info we need, it's not going to be the Hilton or Club Gitmo. They need to know we will do anthing to get the info that will save American lives. Any other approach is naive and useless. Just ANOTHER example of why libs need to stick to their jazz studios and espresso stands and leave national security to the pros.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer >>Yes, It means defending the country from attacks.<< That's what I figured.
Originally Posted By gadzuux What makes you think these people that we're abducting off of the street, transporting to other nations and unlawfully detaining for 'interrogation' are guilty of anything? Several times already, we've done exactly this, only to release the people months later with no charges. This is abuse of power. People who do this have no oversight - zero - they can and do anything they want without repercussion. This is not how a government of checks and balances works. It's corruption of absolute power - power that has not been granted by any overseeing body, but has been usurped by the executive branch. It is a crime against the people of the united states (our representatives) and it's a crime against human rights and dignity.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper 20/12/2005 The Associated Press WASHINGTON — Sen. John McCain, who pushed the White House to support a ban on torture, suggested Sunday that harsh treatment of a terrorism suspect who knew of an imminent attack would not violate international standards. The Arizona Republican said legislation before Congress would establish in U.S. law the international standard banning any treatment of prisoners that "shocks the conscience." That would include, McCain said, mock executions and "water boarding," in which a subject is made to think he is drowning. Asked on ABC's "This Week" whether such treatment of a terrorism suspect who could reveal information that could stop a terrorist operation would shock the conscience, McCain said it would not. I don't know how to do a link but McCain said on this appearance that there may be justification in extreme cases. Again, it would be nice if it could be black or white but we don't live in that world anymore and probably never did.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy Tom, the problem with your little theory world is that your way is NOT going to get us the intel we need to stop an attack now is it. When Seattle or SF is leveled, your little speech about being " good Americans" is not going to make you any friends.. in fact, I predict liberals are going to have a hard time showing their face since their " approach " will be blamed for helping us to get hit.
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Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>I am 35 years old and I never, in my wildest dreams...even after talking with my parents about the nuclear war drills...thought I would see in America what we saw on 9/11. << I hear you. But if we start slowly losing key freedoms and adopt an anything goes in the war on terror mindset, we've become truly terrorized. Which was beyond bin Laden's wildest dreams. Don't give him that.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>their " approach " will be blamed for helping us to get hit<< Only by the idiots on the radio. What's your approach, perpetual Marshall law?
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Originally Posted By cape cod joe Tom-------I just said that people have changed here. fyi Beau is a great American taking the time and effort here as you are with cogent points so don't do that name calling thing. okay? civil
Originally Posted By TomSawyer The forces of evil in this world want an America that doesn't stand for any principles. They want the great American idea and experiment - that governments get their authority from the people and that governments may not impinge in certain inherent rights - to fail. We might save our lives (though it's only a temporary stay of death since we all die anyway) but we'll lose the chance for the American ideal to be anything more than a marketing tool. Me, I'll put my stake with what is morally right, since I believe that we're going to be judged for how we acted and not for how many terrorist attacks we prevented. As Dr. King said, "Any law that uplifts human personality is just. Any law that degrades human personality is unjust." I'll stick with the side of justice.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy <<What's your approach, perpetual Marshall law?>> Nope, just proactive action and common sense. This thing about losng civil rights and all that other crap is a smokescreen by people who refuse to face the problem head on. Bet you can't tell me a single civil right you have lost can you.
Originally Posted By cape cod joe Tom NUUT warned me and now I'm telling you that it's not good to argue about everything and make fun of other people's sincere heartfelt views. This warhoo is coming up with some GREAT stuff here and Jesus would not like your tone of voice or your know-it-all attitude, would HE? You are not better than us Tom. We are all human beings created by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ so please show some respect to our God's creations. respectfully in Christ joe
Originally Posted By TomSawyer CCJ, I'm making heartfelt posts as well on this topic. Don't try to discredit me just because you don't agree with what I'm saying. Address my points, or show me where they are wrong.
Originally Posted By gadzuux >> Really, so where are the lawsuits. << Here's one - there are others. <a href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/12/15/MNG6IG8ADC1.DTL&hw=torture+lawsuits&sn=010&sc=626" target="_blank">http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/ article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/12/15/MNG6IG8ADC1.DTL&hw=torture+lawsuits&sn=010&sc=626</a> - Richard Bernstein, New York Times Thursday, December 15, 2005 Berlin -- Over several months between September 2004 and January 2005 the German police and a senior government official repeatedly pressed the United States for information about a German citizen abducted in Macedonia and held in prison for five months in Afghanistan, Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier said Wednesday in a speech to Parliament. Steinmeier, who was reporting on the results of an investigation into allegations of illegal activity by the CIA in Germany, did not say what the U.S. response was, but the fact that the requests for information were repeated several times suggests that there was no reply, or at best an incomplete one. Steinmeier was addressing the case of Khaled El-Masri, a German citizen of Arab descent who was reportedly seized by the police when he went to Macedonia two years ago and was turned over to the CIA, which reportedly mistook him for a terror suspect with a similar name.
