Originally Posted By DVC_dad Okay I will give you the health part but not the immunizations. First of all, those people who go to the ER because they have no health insurance are still going to the ER... Medicade or not. Its not about having or not having insurance for those people. It's about treament being free. That population of care seeker is one that typically seeks emergency care only, never gets much in the way of regular care, and they don't usually care because it's free and someone else is paying for it. They don't (and some really CAN'T) work in order to have traditional insurance. Secondly, insurance has nothing to do with the recent increase in diseases like Measles, TB, and Polio. In fact those people are right down the street from you, the upper middle class moms who visit a person who the American Medical Association lables as a quack, yes I am talking about the chiropractor. There are unfortunately vast, and significant quantities of people that visit the chiropractor and listen to the rediculous misinformation about immunizations being dangerous and useless. Okay there is nothing wrong with going to the chiropractor if it makes you feel better and all that jazz, but the misinformation about immunizations is where I draw the line on that whole deal there. No thanks. I feel as if I have somewhat of a better insight on this issue of immunizations than some people, as I lived next door to a husband and wife who were and still are both chiropractors. We were neighbors for 4 years. Anyway, it's odd how even for them, chiropractic was the way to go until it was THEIR children with real medical problems. During the course of these four years we had several converstions about various things. My wife is a doctor and he would ask me questions about "traditional medicine" and I would ask him questions about "alternative medicine." They were pretty hard core about things until last year...I was glad to learn...he took his two year old daughter into an opthalmologist and had a simple surgery to correct her lazy eye. They almost got a divorce over it as the wife was dead set against it. The surgery was a complete success. A few weeks later his son had a compound fracture, traditional medicine saved the day. Let me be clear, I am not saying that everything about chiropractic is wrong. It helps lots of people, but the immunization blame squarely rests on this new found fad to skip immunizations. Think about it. The down trodden and homeless and simple poor we have had with us since the beginning. These people have not changed their ways to cause a new spike in these diseases. Oh well... I am out of control on this post now, but suffice to say, I concede that more government spending on healthcare is not a bad thing as long as it's well placed. Increased fee schedules and paying a higher percentage to private practice docs can make a huge difference. Many doctors here in GA won't touch medicade, they won't accept it because it will only pay 20% of their fee. One of my best friends here is a pediatrician. They had to close one of their three offices last year because of the area it was in. It had been there for almost 20 years. The area had become mostly ...urban. The practice was mostly medicade. Our state medicad does not pay well at all. If it paid more, like maybe even 65% of the normal fee, then that practice would still be open and those people would still have some great docs in their area. Since there are no peds there, they are now forced to take their kids to the ER right up the street. Bottom line, I agree after all is said and done, that increased spending will make for a better health in that state. But chiropractors are directly to blame for the new crop of preventable diseases.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<But chiropractors are directly to blame for the new crop of preventable diseases.>> Wow... I'm amazed they even get involved in things like immunizations. Certainly they don't think crackin' the back can prevent those diseases, do they? (And let's not even get started on Osteopaths!)
Originally Posted By DVC_dad <a href="http://tinyurl.com/y4lpu7" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/y4lpu7</a> <a href="http://tinyurl.com/y7hk92" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/y7hk92</a> <a href="http://tinyurl.com/y8k5pt" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/y8k5pt</a>
Originally Posted By DVC_dad I am a little too passionate about the subject. I have to admit, there have been some cases of adverse reactions to some immunizations, and some quite serious, but I have immunized all 6 of my children over the course of many years, with every immunization offered, (and some that are NOT typically offered) with no adverse effects.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad One small little example and it has nothing to do with chiropractic just to be fair... <<<Many children in the United States are home-schooled for religious or philosophical reasons, and physicians tend not to monitor these children's immunization status.[5] In the United States, 15 states now allow children to forgo immunizations because of their parents' "philosophical" objections. In California, a parent need only submit an affidavit to obtain an exemption. Outbreaks of infectious disease among communities receiving religious exemption from immunization showcase the effectiveness of the vaccines and the consequences of refusal. In 1985, measles raged through a Christian Scientist school, with 125 cases and 3 deaths.[6] In 1991, there were at least 890 cases of rubella among the Amish in 5 states, and over a dozen babies with congenital rubella syndrome in Pennsylvania alone.[7] These cases would have been entirely preventable with immunization. In a measles outbreak among the US Amish in 1987, there were 130 cases. The attack rate was 1.7% among immunized individuals, and 73.8% among unimmunized individuals. Two Amish died of measles in the following year.[8] In 1979, a polio outbreak paralyzed 14 Amish people in the United States; the outbreak spread to unimmunized non-Amish neighbors.[9] In 1992, a Netherlands epidemic of polio began in a religious community affecting 68 people, paralyzing 59, and killing 2. None of the affected were immunized.[10]>>> So I have to admit it's not JUST chiropractors.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad Sorry to have highjacked your thread. Back to the topic which I find that I agree with totally.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>Longevity is not necessarily an indicator of "good health."<< Technically I agree. One can live a long life and be a wreck. But there is a correlation. Healthy people do tend to live longer than unhealthy people. Also, Canadians and Americans live similar lifestyle: we live in suburbs, eat fast food, etc. And yet the Canadians live longer.
Originally Posted By mrichmondj What is the quality of their longer life? What is the per capita rate of nursing home care for Canadians? What is the per capita rate for amputations -- a procedure that prolongs life for many with quality of life consequences? Those are just a sample of some questions I would like to know the answers to before I made a blanket statement correlating long life with good health.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Let me be clear, I am not saying that everything about chiropractic is wrong. It helps lots of people, but the immunization blame squarely rests on this new found fad to skip immunizations. << Yes, there is indeed a movement out there to make immunizations seem 'unnatural' and by extension, unhealthy. Add to it a steady series of dopey celebrities that aggressively promote this craziness and it doesn't take long for diseases that were all but gone to start making a comeback. I have strong feelings about chiropractors that go well beyond things they can help with, and start moving into the realm of holistic healing. I have seen some of the outrageous claims made by extended family members involved in chiropractic, and it makes my blood boil. That said, it was a chiropractor that urged by father just a couple of weeks ago to seek more medical care when he couldn't locate the source of my dad's chronic back pain over the past month. Just yesterday we got the news that he has pancreatic cancer and must get surgery to remove it -- the pain in this tye of cancer is often manifested in a person's back. So, responsble chiropractors do exist, and I'm grateful that the one my dad was going to was on the ball.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad <<<So, responsble chiropractors do exist, and I'm grateful that the one my dad was going to was on the ball.>>> That is good news that your dad got the dianosis he needed.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>What is the per capita rate for amputations<< Whatever it is, I can only assume its trivial (I have never seen a 1 legged Canadian hobbling around anywhere). Anyway, in the end its irrelevant. At some point the number of uninsured is going to be high enough to force us into a national health care system. Our daughter is a high school senior. Unless she decides to go to college she will probably join the ranks of the uninsured (most entry level jobs she qualifies for don't offer insurance as a benefit). She takes some pretty expensive medication these days. If we had to pay retail for it it would be about $500 per month. So from her perspective the Canadian system doesn't look all that bad.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 2oony, I'll keep your Dad in my prayers. I was forced to learn a lot more about the pancreas than I ever thought I'd have to when they discovered something on mine. They still aren't quite sure WHAT it is, but for now it seems benign. But pancreatic cancer is very serious, and I'll keep your dad in my prayers for sure.
Originally Posted By jonvn "So, responsble chiropractors do exist, and I'm grateful that the one my dad was going to was on the ball." I'm so very sorry to hear of your father's ill health. I hope things go well for him. You were also lucky to have found a chiropractor who is not a complete charlatan. Those are a very rare breed.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Thanks, Jon. Yeah, I was surprised that he actually did suggest my dad go to a doctor. I know of so many chiropractors that get into all kinds of kooky crap medicine that are convinced they can cure diseases better than any 'unnatural' doctor's methods. If my dad had been seeing one of them, well...
Originally Posted By Tinkerbell819 I hope your Dad makes out okay, KartoonMan. I remember when I worked on Wed. nights at a restaurant and a group of chiropractors from across the street would come in 5 min. before closing time and order dinners. Oh, how we all hated them! They would sit there and hold us up for hours while they referred to each other constantly as "Dr." throughout their conversations. lol I was interested in reading DVCDad's links, but my server, Netscape, shut down when I clicked on them. I have two boys with Autism and there is always something written in the newsletters I get these days about immunizations being a possible cause for Autism. A pediatrician in England, I think, was actually the person spearheading this whole line of thinking. (B/c one of his kids has it.) For the life of me I can't imagine how they came up with such a conclusion. How could an immunization cause a disorder of the brain? It's worse than when people say they won't get a flu shot b/c it causes them to get the flu.
Originally Posted By imadisneygal I am sure you're aware of this Tinkerbell819, but the theory behind the thought that says that vaccines, and the MMR vaccination specifically, are linked to autism is that the shots contained, and in some places still contain, thimerosol. Thimerosol is a mercury preservative. Mercury crosses the blood brain barrier readily and causes brain damage when it does get in there. The shots in most places no longer contain any thimerosol. In some locations where they produce the shot in large containers and use the same container for more than one dose of the drug there is still thimerosol used. The single doses used here do not contain any. I can understand the fear surrounding mercury and the brain. However, it is my personal opinion that there is also a correlation with the age of diagnosis for many autistic kids and an expected language explosion. Many kids are diagnosed at around age 2. This is when the MMR shot is given in the US. It is also the age where a big explosion in language is expected. I think that some doctors wait to see if this "explosion" will happen and if the child is just a late bloomer. Of course there are many children who are clearly autistic and are diagnosed before this age. The recent surge in diagnoses has been primarily in the 2 year-old range. I think this is where the link came in. There is definitely something to be said for protecting the brain from mercury. But in the doses it is used in the immunizations even where it's still used there have been no conclusive studies indicating a link. That said, some people choose not to immunize at all and others choose to split up the MMR shot into M, M, and R at different times to avoid the thimerosol if it is used. And yes, the flu shot thing bugs me too!!
Originally Posted By jonvn "For the life of me I can't imagine how they came up with such a conclusion." They have no evidence. And no link has ever been shown. It's a whole lot worse getting mumps, measles or rubella than getting immunized. And you folks should get flu shots, too. All of you.
