Originally Posted By fkurucz >>Just about eveyone celebrates the "Holidays", but only Christian's celebrate "Christmas".<< While this is true, if there was no Christmas, there would be no "Holiday Season. But I also agree that Christmas itself has been corrupted through commercialism. Just a few decades ago in Latin America Christmas was basically a solemn holiday, "celebrated" by going to midnight Mass. Children did not get presents (plus there was no tree). The kiddies did get presents on the Epiphany (Jan 6), but even this was rather low key, and the gifts often consisted of clothing. Of course, Christmas in Latin America has be Americanized, and Santa has displaced the 3 Kings.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer Cmpaley, I'm happy that I found a church that really celebrates Advent as a period of reflection and anticipation. I think it really builds up to the feast of light and color and joy that is Christmas morning. I think most people have really lost a great opportunity for a wonderful holiday season by forgetting that Christmas lasts 12 days, not just one. It isn't just about the day that you open presents. It can and should be two weeks in the darkest time of the year that we celebrate and shine our light in the darkness. It would be such a great time for parties and dinners and family gatherings spread out over several days. We'll still celebrate Advent and the season of Christmas in our home and in our church, but I wish more people were open to the idea of celebrating the full season of Christmas.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom Getting back to the original question the answer is Liberals. The only entity that has dragged more Christmas displays into court is the ACLU. So please don't try to convince me that Commercialism has driven us to celebrate non religious holidays. Has anyone else noticed that Lowe's hardware stores are selling "holiday trees" not christmas trees? Here in Atlanta the Lowe's stores also have signs in spanish that clearly call them christmas trees in spanish. So I quess only english speaking people have to be politically correct, those rules don't apply is your spanish speaking.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer Business took Christ out of Christmas long before the ACLU was around, KT.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom Not true. Even Jewish people have Christmas trees. Jesus was Jewish and a decendent of King David I might add. The ACLU made it a crime for any business to advertise or call it Christmas ( unless you say it in spanish ).
Originally Posted By TomSawyer >>The ACLU made it a crime for any business to advertise or call it Christmas << Now you're just making stuff up.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>I think most people have really lost a great opportunity for a wonderful holiday season by forgetting that Christmas lasts 12 days, not just one.<< That reminds me of a Disney cartoon where Chip and Dale are throwing out their Christmas tree on Dec 26.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>The ACLU made it a crime for any business to advertise or call it Christmas ( unless you say it in spanish ).<< This remonds me of an incident some years ago in San Diego. The local school district, in its desire to promote "diversity", was allowing minority groups to showcase their religious holidays to students. What was interesting was the Hispanic Catholics were not allowed to "share" the Feast of the Lady of Guadalupe, on the grounds that it was Christian.
Originally Posted By StillThePassHolder Who knew back in 1942 when Bing Crosby sang "Happy Holidays" in the movie Holiday Inn he was insulting everyone?
Originally Posted By FaMulan Because the ancient Jewish Festival of Lights, Chanukah begins at sunset on December 25 this year.
Originally Posted By FaMulan Oops, the above was in response to: >>If Christmas is secular, then why do we say Happy Holidays? I don't get it.<< America, as much as ultra-right wing Christians want to believe is NOT solely a Christian Country. Other faiths have winter celebrations that merit respect as well. Besides, the Christmas Tree is a pagan thing stolen from ancient Germans. The lights on the Christmas Tree are Jewish -Chanukah pre-dates Christmas by a long shot and the partying and revelry are right out of the ancient Roman Satunralia. One of the early Popes, in order to gain more converts, told his cardinals, bishops and priests to adapt pagan symbols to Christain worship. Hey K-Tom, ever watch 'Merry Christmas, Charlie Brown'? I believe it pre-dates the dreaded ACLU and it totally decries the commercialism of Christmas.
Originally Posted By cmpaley Frankly, I'd look at Christmas as a holy day (holy day...holiday...interesting). Let secularists change it to "Winter Holiday" for all I care. It doesn't deter the fact that for Christians, it's the second holiest day on the Calendar (Easter takes the prime place) and for Catholics it's a Holy Day of Obligation to attend Mass. It doesn't change the importance and the joy that Christmas represents. How many people, especially Christians who get all in a snit about the "secularization of Christmas" take a few moments during Advent and Christmastide to reflect on the mystery that IS Christmas? Consider, GOD HIMSELF, God the Son, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten not made, consubstantial with God the Father, by Whom all things were made, for us and for our salvation came down from heaven. By the power of God the Holy Spirit, He was born of the Virgin Mary and became man. Out of love for us and for His Father, God the Son, Jesus Christ, chose to humble Himself and become one of us. He was found in all ways like we are. He got thirsty. He got hungry. He slept. He wept. He knew laughter and joy. He also suffered indignity and embarassment as He was mocked and the pain of the thorns in His head. He knew stress and the fear of pain the night before He died as He prayed that He would not have to drink the Cup of Consumation ("Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from Me, but not My will but Thine be done"). He knew betrayal. He knew the torment of having his wrists and feet nailed the rough wood of a cross. He knew death. All this He knew...yet...He was God. That's what Christmas is about. The love of God...such love that God humbled Himself to become a man and become a servant. That God chose to envelope Himself in the womb of His holy mother (holy through a particular grace of God), the Blessed Virgin Mary and become a little baby, completely dependent on her. The whole mystery of Christmas is so awesome...and so few of us really use this day to ponder this. How can we honestly expect the secular world to even think about considering these awesome mysteries?
Originally Posted By Moderation Happy Holidays is a marketing tool, useful in extending the seasonal decorations and festiveness to include both Xmass and New Years, and has grown in use as it has morphed into a general salution to cover the entire period from Thnaksgiving to New Years, inclusive of Hanukkah and even Quanza. This i ver much in the spirit of Christmass, which in turn was created as a Christian holy day by Constantine in the 4th century to coincide with the pagan festivities taking place already on December 25th. As the 25th was already he celebration of the festivals of Saturnalia, Sol Invictus(Mithras) and generic to the solstace (which fell on 12/25 ratherthan 12/21 before Gregorian calendar reform) it seemed a good day to choose for Christians too. It leads one to ponder, a 4th century shopkeeper calling out happy holidays to patrons who grumble away about attempts to undermine and dilute Mithras...
Originally Posted By debtee What's wrong with Merry Christmas??? I don't understand?? We all say Merry Christmas here in Aus??? Is this something new and politically correct to not say this??
Originally Posted By TomSawyer It's because I reflect on the mystery that I am dismayed by the trivialization of it in pursuit of profit, cmpaley.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan But don't think both the spiritual and the secular celebrations have their place, Tom? Does one really threaten the other?
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>Is this something new and politically correct to not say this??<< Depending on who you ask, some might say that there is a "War against Christmas" in the US. Just think of it as multiculturalism run amok.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom Here is my proof. <a href="http://www.temple.edu/tempress/titles/671_reg.html" target="_blank">http://www.temple.edu/tempress /titles/671_reg.html</a> Now find me the proof that business decided to make Christmas non secular. <<Hey K-Tom, ever watch 'Merry Christmas, Charlie Brown'? I believe it pre-dates the dreaded ACLU and it totally decries the commercialism of Christmas.>> Not sure where this came from. I thought we were discussing how "christmas" has become non secular not non commercial.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>It's because I reflect on the mystery that I am dismayed by the trivialization of it in pursuit of profit, cmpaley.<< The difference, Tom, is that I don't see you out there making a snit about it. I hate the commercialization of Christmas just as much as anyone else...yet I do LOVE Christmas at Disneyland...go figure. I understand that there are two facets to Christmas time. There's the sacred, which I expounded upon and there's the profane, which we celebrate with our families. Personally, I think we should let them change the name used in the secular world to anything they want (they don't get it anyway!) and we Christians can continue to call it Christmas.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer They both have their place, 2oony. But it's taking the word Christmas and using it to describe a non-religious holiday that bothers me. Say "Happy Holidays" or "Season's Greetings" all you want. I think it's wrong for movies and TV shows and advertisements to try to redefine the "true spirit' or "meaning" of Christmas without any mention of the mystery that cmpaley referred to. On the other hand, the way we celebrate Christmas today is based so much in a 150 year old Victorian creation, and even then Santa Claus was played up and the birth of Christ was played down. (Did you know that nearly 50 years passed from the time the first Christmas card was printed to the first time the Nativity appeared on a Christmas card?) The Christmas that we celebrate today was never really a religious festival. It was marked on the liturgical calendar, but it was nothing like it is now until the Victorian era. How would the secular holiday threaten the spiritual one? I think the quieter but deeper message of the spiritual Christmas is all to easily drowned out by the louder, flashier secular Christmas.
