Originally Posted By TomSawyer >>Now find me the proof that business decided to make Christmas non secular<< Find me an advertisement that mentions the nativity of Christ to sell merchandise.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan <a href="http://www.christmasnightinc.com/c69/Bethlehem-Nativity-Scene-with-Stable-30-p326.html" target="_blank">http://www.christmasnightinc.c om/c69/Bethlehem-Nativity-Scene-with-Stable-30-p326.html</a>
Originally Posted By FaMulan K-Tom, you were blaming the commericalism and secularization of Christmas on the ACLU, not business. Here's a fact for you from the ACLU website: They were founded in 1920, commercialization and secularization of Christmas started happening in Victorian times. <a href="http://www.aclu.org/info/18852res20040107.html" target="_blank">http://www.aclu.org/info/18852 res20040107.html</a>
Originally Posted By Darkbeer <a href="http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/shroder/041210" target="_blank">http://www.renewamerica.us/col umns/shroder/041210</a> >>Christian children feel the cold slap of oppression. No Christmas. We are told that public school cannot allow preference to one religion. Yet children are asked to fast and pray to Allah, pretend they are Muslims, memorize the Quran and play Jihad. Why? Because way back when Bill Clinton was President, he preferred to "negotiate" with Muslim leaders rather than answer terrorist bombings with our military. He colluded with the ACLU to present religious guidelines worded to manipulate court rulings at the ACLU's discretion, successfully censoring Christians and the Bible in public school while promoting every other faith, specifically Islam. In 1995, Clinton's Presidential Guidelines, Religious Expression in Public School, were originally drafted by the ACLU. These guidelines appeared to protect Christian rights, but for every single "religious expression," there is a clause of escape, a backdoor for secular groups to attack Christianity at will, and the ACLU has been happy to oblige. Nadine Strossen, President of the ACLU — refers to Clinton's guidelines as the authority to support the ACLU's lawsuits restricting Christmas celebrations and removing Nativity scenes from public schools. The ACLU describes the "religious leaders" of Clinton's guidelines as committed to separation of church and state. This explains Strossen's haughty smile as she smugly said on the Lou Dobbs show, "All these religious groups agreed to it!" Clinton knowingly presented these guidelines to America as drafted by "thirty-five religious groups." The truth is they were drafted by the American Muslim Council, ACLU, American Humanist Association, Americans United for Seperation (sic) of Church and State, many more recognizable secularist groups among a few Christian-sounding names. Clinton disguised these guidelines with much profession of his Christian faith, but sincerity is lost when one examines the fruit. Lying under oath, dubious activities with staff, slipping in an ACLU document as written by "religious groups" is compounded when one remembers how Hillary demanded public funding for (brace yourself) a dung covered depiction of the Virgin Mary, with breasts of elephant dung, surrounded by genital pornography at the Brooklyn Museum. Together the Clintons met with Muslim groups in the White House so often it became commonplace. With this kind of history, it is not hard to believe Clinton betrayed America's Christian heritage and used our children as bargaining chips in negotiations with Islamic leaders. Additionally, Clinton went beyond the ACLU guidelines and added: "Students generally do not have a Federal right to be excused from lessons that may be inconsistent with their religious beliefs or practices." Pay attention. There went religious freedom. Parents cannot opt out their children unless allowed by the school district which is often refused.<<
Originally Posted By Darkbeer <a href="http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41469" target="_blank">http://www.worldnetdaily.com/n ews/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41469</a> >>The Constitution allows a Rhode Island city to have private religious holiday displays on its front lawn, a federal judge ruled yesterday in a suit filed by the American Civil Liberties Union. "The ACLU long ago decided it wanted to be Uncle Scrooge and expend its energies saying 'bah humbug' to public Christmas displays, but they are out of touch with the 96 percent of Americans that celebrate Christmas," said Gary McCaleb, senior counsel for the Arizona-based Alliance Defense Fund. McCaleb said the U.S. District Court for Rhode Island "ruled consistently with the law," noting that "time after time the courts have ruled such displays to be perfectly constitutional." The ACLU claimed the city of Cranston, R.I., erected religious displays along with secular displays in violation of the so-called "separation of church and state." But the court said the city can continue to open such forums to the public as long as it revises its policy to establish objective criteria for allowing the public to set up the holiday displays. In his opinion, Judge William Smith wrote that nothing in the city’s public statements or in its implementation of the policy for its Christmas displays "reveals or even remotely supports an inference that a religious purpose was behind the creation of the limited public forum," as the lawsuit alleged. <<
Originally Posted By Darkbeer <a href="http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41831" target="_blank">http://www.worldnetdaily.com/n ews/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41831</a> >>Much of the ACLU's litigation targets schools and other pubic institutions that make use of Christmas music or displays the group believes are a violation of the First Amendment Establishment Clause. <<
Originally Posted By Darkbeer <a href="http://www.limitedgovernment.org/publications/pubs/briefs/pdfs/brf3-20.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.limitedgovernment.o rg/publications/pubs/briefs/pdfs/brf3-20.pdf</a>
Originally Posted By retlawfan Walmart isn't the only one... <a href="http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47600" target="_blank">http://www.wnd.com/news/articl e.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47600</a> I think the last line in the article is funny.
Originally Posted By cmpaley The Rabid Right, who uses the Name of Jesus and His Church, is trying to imply that families are now prohibited by law from celebrating Christmas and that Advent and Christmas church activities are also prohibited. Malls still are full of Christmas stuff. Disneyland Resort is totally Christmassed out. Christmas trees are on sale right now. Churches are getting their nativity scenes ready as are families. Families are setting out their home Christmas decorations. Many radio stations have already started playing Christmas music. Yesterday's First Sunday of Advent Masses went off without a hitch. I can pray the Breviary for today, which is Monday in the First Week of Advent. For the uninitiated, Advent marks the beginning of the year on the Western Church's Calendar (for those churches that practice liturgy) and the preparation for Christmastide. Plans are being made right now for Midnight Masses all over the world. And the Right is trying to sell the notion that Christmas is under attack. I just don't see it.
Originally Posted By Darkbeer PRESS CONFERENCE THE BARBARIANS ARE AT THE GATE We have a movement that started here in San Diego, that will bring back to our country the great traditions and celebrations upon which it is founded. One of the most important of these traditions is Christmas. It is from this American tradition that the name will remain "Christmas on the Prado." The unique idea of tolerance is written into the Declaration of Independence: No one has the right to impede others prerogative to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Americans are awakening to the fact that they themselves have stood by as intolerant others took these rights from them. The American people realize that there is a war against what they hold dear. Now, there is no compromise. Americans will no longer ignore these issues and do nothing as other cherished traditions are eroded by those who are intolerant of our traditions. In related issues, even when voters overwhelmingly voted again and again and again to retain the cross on the Mt Soledad War Memorial, our rights and our vote have been undermined by Public Employees who think they and they alone can decide what to do about this Memorial. City Hall ignores the will of the people. We are not going to stand for this. In Los Angeles County the Cross was removed from The L.A. County Seal - without putting this action to a vote by the people - simply because the ACLU sent a letter telling them to remove the cross. Mind you, the ACLU did not send a letter telling them to put the removal of the cross to a vote by the people. It threatened an expensive lawsuit against Los Angeles County if the Board did not meet their demands. The Board capitulated to this blackmail. Our beloved Christmas celebration has been called "December Nights," and without one vote by the people, they destroyed Christmas on the Prado. That is no longer the case since the people of San Diego have awoken to the fact that they can no longer trust Government to protect their interests. It is now in the hands of the people. When we are prohibited by our government to exercise our fundamental, God given rights, President Thomas Jefferson tells us that, "whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." Our government has failed to protect our interests and rights in this matter. Fortunately we have the power to make changes. We the people, the former silent majority, are re-instating our American traditions. Our City government believes they have the right to abolish our celebration of Christmas, but they are mistaken. At this Press Conference we are announcing that we are joining forces on all fronts, and we are organizing to celebrate the original Christmas on the Prado in 2005. As citizens of the United States of America this action falls within our rights to freedom of assembly, and freedom of speech. And we do not need permission from an oppressive city government to exercise these rights. In keeping with the traditions of America, anyone and everyone will be welcome to join us. The message of Christmas is, "Peace on Earth, good-will to all." By abolishing a beautiful city tradition that was overwhelmingly supported by the people, The City Government can undo their mistake and stand with the people, or they can stand down. In attendance are: Anthony Porrello, Founder and Chairman Restore Christmas. <a href="http://www.RestoreChristmas.org" target="_blank">http://www.RestoreChristmas.or g</a> David Hernandez, President and CEO The Committee to Support the Los Angeles County Seal. <a href="http://www.SaveTheSeal.net" target="_blank">http://www.SaveTheSeal.net</a> Philip Thalheimer, Chairman San Diegans for the Mt. Soledad National War Memorial. <a href="http://www.SoledadNational.com" target="_blank">http://www.SoledadNational.com</a>
Originally Posted By Darkbeer <a href="http://www.restorechristmas.org/about.htm" target="_blank">http://www.restorechristmas.or g/about.htm</a> >>For Christians, Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists, the birth of Jesus is regarded as at least an auspicious occasion. In contradiction to this and to the rights of all to praise that which is good and worthy of honor, the prohibition, both social and legal, of the celebration of Jesus' birth is an affront to all of us as well as to the Constitution. Along with the idea of a benevolent Creator, our right--as individuals and as a culture--to name and celebrate that which is good and noble is quintessential to our idea of government: Jefferson states, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Based on quasi-Constitutional arguments, certain liberals want us to believe this it is legally necessary and even decorous to eliminate any reference to 'Christmas" from our city and vocabulary. However, the use of "Christmas" is not only religious; it also reflects our Great Western Tradition. It cannot be demonstrated to be a burden to anyone of sound mind, and it no way falls under the Constitutional strictures against the establishment of religion. This is our right, and this right is an essential part of the cultural heritage that makes America great. When we are prohibited by our government to exercise our fundamental, God given rights, Jefferson further exhorts us, "...whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."<<
Originally Posted By Darkbeer <a href="http://www.michnews.com/artman/publish/article_10491.shtml" target="_blank">http://www.michnews.com/artman /publish/article_10491.shtml</a> >>Mr. Gibson's book description: "Yes, Virginia, there is a war on Christmas. It’s the secularization of America’s favorite holiday and the ever-stronger push toward a neutered 'holiday' season so that non-Christians won’t be even the slightest bit offended. "Traditionalists get upset when they’re told—more and more these days—that celebrating Christmas in any public way is a violation of church and state separation. That is certainly not what the founders intended when they wrote, 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.' "John Gibson, a popular anchor for the Fox News Channel, has been digging up evidence about the liberal activists, lawyers, politicians, educators, and media people who are leading the war on Christmas. And he reveals that the situation is worse than you can imagine. For instance: • In Illinois, state government workers were forbidden from saying the words 'Merry Christmas' while at work • In Rhode Island, local officials banned Christians from participating in a public project to decorate the lawn of City Hall • A New Jersey school banned even instrumental versions of traditional Christmas carols • Arizona school officials ruled it unconstitutional for a student to make any reference to the religious history of Christmas in a class project<<
Originally Posted By Darkbeer <a href="http://stoptheaclu.com/archives/2005/11/25/aclu-style-political-correctness-hits-the-usps/" target="_blank">http://stoptheaclu.com/archive s/2005/11/25/aclu-style-political-correctness-hits-the-usps/</a> >>It is official, the United States Postal Service has now folded to the anti-Christmas PC movement. Postal employees are no longer allowed to say to customers “Merry Christmas.†And if that isn’t enough, no more Christmas stamps. The busiest time of year for the USPS is the Christmas/Chanukah season. More letters, greeting cards, and packages are shipped via the USPS during the last week in November and the first 24 days in December than the rest of the year combined. We, in our 21st century need for instant gratification, now rely on email, instant messaging, and mobile telephones to do our communication. We no longer take the time to hand write letters and other communications, place a stamp on an envelope, and drop it in a blue box. We now boot up the computer, connect to the internet, type out a message, click send and it’s there. No need for a stamp. No waiting days for it to arrive and days more for a reply. The USPS has decided that the traditional “Madonna and Child†had to be replaced with “Holiday Cookie†stamps.<<
Originally Posted By Lisann22 Well, nobody told my neighborhood or city about all this. We are lit up and fully decorated. Lots of nativity scenes, stars and several church living nativity scenes and drive through plays.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy Pretty simple. The ONLY people offended by the word Christmas are liberals who are to stupid to unserstand there is no such thing as seperation of church and state. The good news is that America is starting to see what is happening to Christmas thanks to the liberals and now people are fighting back. Once liberalism is exposed, the people in this country ALWAYS fight back. We don't want to pattern this country after Stalin. It just takes a while for people to wake up. John Gibson, O'Reilly and many others are doing a great job getting the word out. Oh, Bing crosby didn't sing " I'm dreaming of a White Holiday ".
Originally Posted By cmpaley I wonder how many of these rabid-right wing "Christians" who go about saying, "Merry Christmas" sincerely mean MERRY CHRISTMAS. It seems more like they really want to say "F--- YOU in Jesus' Name!" because the intent is not to spread the joy of the Mystery of the Incarnation (the true meaning of Christmas) but to be a jerk about it. Christmas is special because of Who (Christ) and what (the Incarnation) is being celebrated, not because we can go to the mall and spend lots of cash and ring up credit card debts.
Originally Posted By woody cmpaley: You're ridiculous. To subscribe such a thought into saying Merry Christmas is beyond cynical. How does one say Merry Christmas while being a "jerk?" I think you've had too much eggnog while channeling Scrooge.
Originally Posted By woody "Christmas is special because of Who (Christ) and what (the Incarnation) is being celebrated, not because we can go to the mall and spend lots of cash and ring up credit card debts." Then you don't need to go shopping. That's rather simple. However, Christmas is always for the kids. Kids love Christmas. They understand the joy of Christmas and Christ's saving grace. I guess in public education. Any information on Jesus is forbidden. BTW, no one should go into debt to pay for Christmas gifts. And for you cmpaley, don't give a gift in vain or obligation. That would be even worse. No one should receive a gift from you. It would be cynical to receive it. Nonetheless, if you give a gift to a needy person, your cynicism would be overlooked. Why ruin the event?
Originally Posted By StillThePassHolder Ah, the civil tone when debating Christmas just warms your heart, don't it?
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>I guess in public education. Any information on Jesus is forbidden.<< Of course it isn't.
