Originally Posted By cmpaley Funny...Ann Coulter, right-wing attack dog, said exactly that: DISCLAIMER AND WARNING: The following links do contain a naughty word quoting Ann Coulter saying that she mean something naughty and insulting when she says "Merry Christmas." <a href="http://thelondonfog.blogspot.com/2005/01/little-slow-on-draw.html" target="_blank">http://thelondonfog.blogspot.c om/2005/01/little-slow-on-draw.html</a> <a href="http://www.philadelphiaweekly.com/view.php?id=10962" target="_blank">http://www.philadelphiaweekly. com/view.php?id=10962</a>
Originally Posted By cmpaley And I take Christmas very seriously. It's my favorite holiday and I have no problem with the all trappings thereof. My point is that, for Christians, there is a main point to it...namely, the Incarnation of the Eternal Word. For non-Christians, it's about trees, lights, presents and family get-togethers. Why Christians insist on profaning the awesome event of the Incarnation by putting it in everyone's face during this time of crass commercialism is something that I find offensive in the extreme. We should be more busy living as Christians, being salt and light in the world, and BEING CHRIST TO THE WORLD than insisting that the symbols of the celebration of our faith be publicly displayed. Our lights should so shine before men that they will see our deeds and glorify God by coming to Him.
Originally Posted By woody "Why Christians insist on profaning the awesome event of the Incarnation by putting it in everyone's face during this time of crass commercialism is something that I find offensive in the extreme." There is two things wrong with this statement. First, Christian who wish Merry Christmas to someone isn't being "in your face" with it. It's no different than a greeting and it also has double duty to witness to non-believers. As for Ann Coulter, she is describing how saying Merry Christmas to some people does appear to be no different to profanity. I was correct about your post. You're being too cynical if you think saying Merry Christmas is wrong. Second, Christians are not advocating "commercialism." I don't think anyone should make gift giving routine or go into debt to give gifts. Many Christians think calling the event a "holiday" is ignoring the reason why people are celebrating Christmas, which also has its secular purposes as well. I find your reaction to be very extreme especially when people say "Merry Christmas" as if they are trying to mean "Bah Humbug." Well, Bah Humbug to you.
Originally Posted By SuperDry For Christ's sake, there is so much mis-information out there about the ACLU and religion that I hardly know where to start. Here's one way: the ACLU strongly supports the separation of church and state on both sides of the sword: they step in when gov't (or an individual under color of their gov't authority) tries to promote one religion over another, and at the same time they defend inividuals' right to practice their religion free of gov't interference. For example of the latter, take this case: <a href="http://www.aclu.org/studentsrights/expression/12828prs20030221.html?ht=christmas" target="_blank">http://www.aclu.org/studentsri ghts/expression/12828prs20030221.html?ht=christmas</a>%20christmas <<< NORTHAMPTON, MA -- The American Civil Liberties Union of Massachusetts today asked a federal district court in Springfield to protect the First Amendment rights of high school students who were disciplined by school officials for distributing candy canes with religious messages just before Christmas. Students have a right to communicate ideas, religious or otherwise, to other students during their free time, before or after class, in the cafeteria, or elsewhere. ... In today's case, the court is reviewing whether officials at Westfield High School in Western Massachusetts violated the rights of a student-initiated Bible Club by punishing them for handing out handing out candy canes with religious messages attached. ... In legal papers filed today, the ACLU of Massachusetts argued that the school rule interferes with the free speech rights of public high school students in Massachusetts under both state law and the First Amendment, which protects their speech as long as it does not disrupt the educational process. >>> Does that sound like the actions of a group that's against Christianity? Take a look back at the last few threads in WE where the title suggests that the ACLU is somehow attacking Christianity. You will notice that although the editorialized wording of the thread subject implies that the ACLU is against Christianity, a careful reading of all of the linked stories will show that the actual problem is an agent of the gov't, acting in their (perhaps perceived) official capacity, is promoting their particular religious beliefs to others. In cases where an individual that's not a gov't official is restricted from exercizing their religion, the ACLU steps up to the plate. Practically speaking, in a country that's 78% Christian, the majority of cases where a gov't agent promotes their religion are going to be cases of Christians doing so, and many of the cases where people are prevented from doing so are going to be non-Christian. But in the situation where a Christian is prevented from exercizing their religious beliefs by gov't, the ACLU is right there by their side. I know the notion that people with Christian beliefs, non-Christian religious beliefs, or no religious beliefs at all should be treated equally under the law is a foreign concept to some, but that's highly ironic in a country that was one of the first to be founded on precisely that belief. <<< even when voters overwhelmingly voted again and again and again to retain the cross on the Mt Soledad War Memorial, our rights and our vote have been undermined >>> The whole point of the Bill of Rights is to protect the minority against the will of the majority. The Bill of Rights establishes a set of minimal standards that cannot be violated even with the majority will or majority vote of the public. If someone does not agree with this notion, then they don't agree with the notion of a Bill of Rights in general - after all, why would you otherwise need a Bill of Rights in a democracy? In a 78% Christian country, we need the Bill of Rights to protect the other 22%* who have different beliefs. * Actually, it's much more than 22%, as quite a good number of Christians believe that their beliefs are a personal matter and not something that gov't should get involved with. <<< It is official, the United States Postal Service has now folded to the anti-Christmas PC movement. ... no more Christmas stamps. ... The USPS has decided that the traditional “Madonna and Child†had to be replaced with “Holiday Cookie†stamps. >>> Ridiculous. Go to <a href="http://usps.gov" target="_blank">http://usps.gov</a> and go to BuyStamps->StampsBySubject->Holiday. You'll see the the Holiday Cookies stamps right there along with the Madonna and Child (and Hanukkah and Kwanzaa) stamps. How does stuff this biased get in print? Looking at the URL, I see that the linked story is from StopTheACLU.com. I wonder if they have an agenda? Here's another case: <a href="http://www.aclu.org/freespeech/gen/11511prs20041209.html?ht=" target="_blank">http://www.aclu.org/freespeech /gen/11511prs20041209.html?ht=</a> There were two cases in the above press release. I'm ignoring the marijuana free speech case, and focusing on the religious one: <<< ... the ACLU criticized a separate ruling that upheld the transit agency's decision to reject ads submitted by a Christian church group. ... the court ruled that the transportation authority had the right to reject ads submitted by the Church of the Good News. The ads criticized the secularization of Christmas and promoted Christianity as the "one true religion." The ACLU of Massachusetts filed the lawsuit in 2002 charging that the transportation authority violated the religious liberty and free speech rights of the church. >>> So you see, in a case specifically dealing with a Christian church that disagrees with the secularization of Christmas and wants to spread that message, the ACLU sides with the church when a gov't agency restricts their free speech rights. I wonder why I didn't see mention of this case on StopTheACLU.com? Now, having said all of that, there's much that goes on that I don't agree with. I too am outraged that Christmas has been stolen from me in many respects in the public space. I do believe that Christmas Day is our most important national holiday, and I think we should all be able to agree to celebrate this day without it being overrun with PC. Especially these days, Christmas is represented by a broad spectrum of values and symbols, from Midnight Mass to Santa Claus to even the Heatmiser. I cringe whenever I hear "Happy Holidays" to the exclusion of Merry Christmas. I occasionally pull phone duty at work on Christmas Eve, and always answer the phone "Merry Christmas" and have yet offended anyone. I'm disappointed whenever I hear of someone on either extreme of the issue using Christmas as a wedge issue.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip One more cut and paste from Darkbeer on this thread and I'm going to give up Christianity and start worshiping my Lava Light. P.S. Did you ever notice that a Lava Light is shaped something like a Christmas tree?
Originally Posted By StillThePassHolder "One more cut and paste from Darkbeer on this thread and I'm going to give up Christianity and start worshiping my Lava Light." I used to just scan them, now I don't even bother doing that. I treat it as a void. If the guy can't express an original thought, why go to the trouble?
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>One more cut and paste from Darkbeer on this thread and I'm going to give up Christianity and start worshiping my Lava Light.<< LOL!
Originally Posted By patrickegan I take a week or two off and it still the same old whinging about Darkbeer’s cut and paste posts, sheeesh! So I guess it’s safe to assume George Bush is still a meanie-goat and Dick Cheney is still trying to take over the world with his subliminal Halliburton subsididary KBR-X’s!
Originally Posted By FaMulan And if that isn’t enough, no more Christmas stamps.<< Then how come I bought Christmas themed (albeit Santa Claus) stamps just last week? >>I wonder how many of these rabid-right wing "Christians" who go about saying, "Merry Christmas" sincerely mean MERRY CHRISTMAS. It seems more like they really want to say "F--- YOU in Jesus' Name!" because the intent is not to spread the joy of the Mystery of the Incarnation (the true meaning of Christmas) but to be a jerk about it.<< I actually agree with you on this cmpaley. One of the deadly sins is pride and a lot of Born Again Christians and extreme right Christians have an overweaning pride and take no one else's feelings into consideration. I come from a mixed heritage, Jewish and Catholic, I celebrate both in more secular versions and it irks me to no end when people say "God Bless You" when I'm not even truly sure in my heart that a God exists!
Originally Posted By itsme I love Christmas, One of my fav holidays. The tree, the trains, getting out the mistletoe belt buckle, etc. I always used to say merry Christmas to everyone until i started to get to know people who dont celebrate it, I now just say Seasons greetings or Happy holidays. I have a very religious friend who told their kids as soon as they could about certain things with the holiday. They said they would be hypocrites with what its supposed to be about lying every year.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper I'm a big fan of Coca Cola for embracing Santa Claus and putting him front and center on their cans. Christmas wouldn't be Christmas without Christ. It would be mas. Mas doesn't sound like fun to me.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy <<Does that sound like the actions of a group that's against Christianity? Take a look back at the last few threads in WE where the title suggests that the ACLU is somehow attacking Christianity.>> If anyone thinks the ACLU does NOT attack Christisnaity, that person is totally clueless. The ACLU goes against God and Christians 99.9% of the time, yet some people will take that one in a million case where the ACLU goes against their anti God agenda and then claim the ACLU is there to help christians?? Unreal The ACLU is a disgusting organization that should be shut down. There is NO such thing as seperation of church and state, that logic is bogus and is what the ACLU bases it's very existance on.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper The ACLU's charge is to protect our citizens according to an interpretation of the Bill of Rights. But, it is just that...and interpretation. It isn't necessarily the right interpretation.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy Any group founded by communists should be scorned and not trusted by America. Bill O'Reilly is all over these guys and is dead on correct about who they are.
Originally Posted By Moderation I think the ACLU is more right than wrong, but where they are wrong they are extravagantly wrong.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< The ACLU goes against God and Christians 99.9% of the time, yet some people will take that one in a million case where the ACLU goes against their anti God agenda and then claim the ACLU is there to help christians?? >>> Please provide examples of where the ACLU acts "against God" in the situation where the color of gov't authority is not involved. If there are any, I would guess that they are few and far between. <<< There is NO such thing as seperation of church and state, that logic is bogus and is what the ACLU bases it's very existance on. >>> And that's exactly where our disagreement comes from. One of several pillars of ACLU beliefs is the separation of church and state. I would submit to you that someone that declares "There is NO such thing as seperation of church and state" believes that the state has every business involving itself in religious matters and projecting particular religious beliefs on others. I don't have to guess that such a person would be vehemently opposed to the ACLU, as the ACLU will fight them tooth and nail to prevent the theocratization of the state. It is also no surprise that such a person would disguise their opposition to the ACLU's support of separation of chuch and state by mischaracterizing the ACLU as being anti-Christian. I further submit to you that even in our 78% Christian nation, the majority of people support at least the notion of separation of church and state. Even though reasonable minds may differ on particular situations in this regard, I believe that the majority of Americans would say that the statement "There is NO such thing as seperation of church and state" is both false and contrary to fundamental American values.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy How does having a nativity scene on the lawn of city hall a violation of the law or the establishment clause? To the ACLU it is. America does not want Christmas hidden in any way. They don't want Holiday break put in place of Christas break for their kids. They don't want a store telling them happy holidays because they are afraid the ACLU and some A-hole will sue them for saying Merry Christmas. Look at the polls on this stuff. People vote against removing Christmas and God more than they vote against gay marriage.. which is tough to do. The ACLU sucks and yes they only sue Christians and were founded by a communist.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< How does having a nativity scene on the lawn of city hall a violation of ... establishment clause? >>> That should be obvious even to you. <<< America does not want Christmas hidden in any way. They don't want Holiday break put in place of Christas break for their kids. >>> Christmas Day is a national holiday, and our most important one. As long as the celebration of it is not done in overtly religious terms, I don't see the problem. I agree with you if you think that having "holiday breaks" from school or "holiday sales" at stores smacks of PC. <<< They don't want a store telling them happy holidays because they are afraid the ACLU and some A-hole will sue them for saying Merry Christmas. >>> So you are now saying that stores are afraid of telling customers Happy Holidays out of fear of an ACLU lawsuit? Who is the moonbat now? Please show me an example where the ACLU has sued a private individual or organization for saying Happy Holidays, let alone Merry Christmas. You just continue to reinforce my belief that the extreme religious right in this country want to use gov't to promote their own beliefs onto everyone else, and will villify anyone that opposes this as being anti-God.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< The ACLU sucks and yes they only sue Christians and were founded by a communist. >>> The United States was founded by many that were slave owners. What's your point? Regarding lawsuits regarding religious matters, the ACLU generally sues people that attempt to use gov't authority to promote their own religion, or restrict the practice of others' religions. In a 78% Christian nation, this is most obviously going to involve Christians in one way or another in most cases.
