Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< <<< The ACLU sucks and yes they only sue Christians and were founded by a communist. >>> The United States was founded by many that were slave owners. What's your point? >>> In case you missed MY point, it is that you tend to throw out these "bumper sticker" slogans without actually discussing the issue at hand to any degree. And when the very same logic (that is, your logic) is applied to your position, you often act as if the most offensive and unreasonable thing possible has been said.
Originally Posted By woody "That should be obvious even to you." This is a non-responsive answer. The ACLU has already eliminated many nativity scenes from government property with their lawsuits.
Originally Posted By woody A nativity scene is not the establishment of a religion. It is a religious symbol and a tradition.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< The ACLU has already eliminated many nativity scenes from government property with their lawsuits. >>> Yes, that's the notion of separation of church and state: the state should not promote a particular religious message. I have to once again point out that even in our 78% Christian nation, I believe that the majority of people support the notion of separation of church and state. It's possible that the majority may not think that the particular situation of a nativity scene on the lawn of City Hall steps over the line, and I don't want to focus on this issue alone. But you will notice that at least among the people here on WE that seem to be strongly in support nativity scenes on the lawn of City Hall, they also seem to be opposed to the entire separation notion.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<The ACLU goes against God and Christians 99.9% of the time, yet some people will take that one in a million case where the ACLU goes against their anti God agenda and then claim the ACLU is there to help christians??>> Bovine excrement. <<I'm only a lowly 2nd year law student at the University of Kentucky, but I fit the rest of the bill. I'm a former member of the Board of Directors of the ACLU of Kentucky and President of the UK chapter of the ACLU. I am also a practicing and devout Christian. I can also speak from personal knowledge that there are indeed a large number of Christian lawyers who work with the ACLU. First, I would like to briefly state that the ACLU "stands up" for Christians in innumerable ways that somehow or another Fox News doesn't pick up on. When some middle school principal who once heard the phrase "separation of church and state" suspends a child for praying over lunch, the ACLU gets blamed. Again, what doesn't get reported is that the ACLU ALWAYS attempts to represent Christians in such overzealous misunderstandings, but publicity-hungry lawyers for the so-called Christian right are usually already there to obfuscate and conceal the truth. Rant over. You asked for an explanation of why I believe being a Christian and an ACLU lawyer are consistent. I could write for hours on the topic, but I'll boil it down to a few main points. 1. The only way to guarantee that Christians have the right to worship as we see fit, free from any governmental interference, is to guarantee that no religion recieves governmental preference. If for no other reason, within my lifetime Christians will no longer constitute a majority of the American population. If we set the precedent now that the majority can dictate matters of faith to the minority, then the Christian right may soon find itself on the losing side of its own arguments. 2. I believe my Lord and savior to be a kind, just, and merciful God. I refuse to believe that He would condemn men and women of faith to Hell simply because their religion was doctrinally different. This belief could perhaps be summed up by an exchange in one of C.S. Lewis' fantastic Narnia books (I forget which one), in which Aslan the lion is asked if he is God, to which Aslan replies, "I have many names." Whether your God is named Jesus, Allah, Yahweh, or any other name, I believe you are saved. The dogma is just window-dressing. The point being that dogma for the sake of dogma tends to be self-defeating, as its observance is not so much an exercise of faith as of habit. Governmental enforcement of one strain of Christian doctrine does nothing to enhance faith. Posting the Ten Commandments on school walls saves not one soul. 3. In the same vein, as a man of faith I am profoundly offended by the sanctimonious would-be demagogues who treat Christianity as if it were some kind of virus that spreads on mere contact. What has a Bible verse read over a school intercom to do with the teaching of Christ's love? We are told by the Bible to be fishers of men; finders of converts. It never commands us to do it stupidly. The best (and in my experience, the only) way to truly gain converts is to expemplify Christian ideals. Be kind to others. Help those who are most in need of help (without any proselytization involved). Strive to better yourself whilst leaving the judgment of others to God. Then when asked why you do these things that so few others do, you explain how you are driven by faith. Those who would have forced prayer in every classroom and the Ten Commandments on every public wall seem to be interested more in publicity and theocratic clout than in actually winning people's souls. 4. Finally, on a more general note, I am offended by the selective interpretation of both secular and religious facts by the Christian right. They claim that America was founded on Christian principles (a statement that is historically unfounded) that should be legally enforced today, yet ignore the fact that it was also founded by mostly slave-owning men who would limit political rights solely to landed males. They find Bible verses to justify all manner of political positions (Jerry Falwell once claimed that Reagan's Balanced Budget Amendment proposal was Biblically mandated), yet choose to ignore those verses that are at odds with their beliefs (such as the Old Testament's religious codes and Paul's acceptance of slavery, just to name a few). I believe that the Bible has a few choice words on hypocrisy. Well, I meant for this to be a brief response, and here's I've gone and written an essay. I doubt what I've written will change the minds of those who believe ACLU members are all followers of Beelzebub, but I hope that it will show those with somewhat more open minds that there is such a thing as a non-absolutist position.>> Source: <a href="http://www.scalzi.com/whatever/003093.html" target="_blank">http://www.scalzi.com/whatever /003093.html</a> It is natural that the vast majority of the separation of church and state issues would be with Christians... they are the overwhelming dominant religion in America. 76.5 percent of Americans are Christians 14.1% are Secular/Non-religious/Agnostic/Atheist 14.1% are all other religions combined. Source: <a href="http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html#religions" target="_blank">http://www.adherents.com/rel_U SA.html#religions</a> That means that of the people in America who are 'religious', 89% of them are Christian. Of course the great majority of cases the ACLU takes involving separation of church and state issues deal with Christians... they comprise the great majority of religious people in America. Duh.
Originally Posted By woody "But you will notice that at least among the people here on WE that seem to be strongly in support nativity scenes on the lawn of City Hall, they also seem to be opposed to the entire separation notion." That's because the separation of church and state is never in the Constitution; however, I believe the First Amendment says no religion shall be endorsed or prevent the free exercise of religion, but this is completely different. Religious symbols does not endorse a religion, which should be defined as whatever religious denomination is represented (Baptist, Adventist, etc). First Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Originally Posted By woody The ACLU is actively suing the Boy Scouts for what... they believe that any God or supernatural being should be recognized. The ACLU is trying to remove the cross from the Los Angeles County seal. What a waste of time. The Boy Scouts are not representing any religion. The LA County seal has a cross to represent the missionares who settled in the area. <a href="http://www.naco.org/Content/ContentGroups/Publications1/County_News1/20043/6-21-04/L_A__County_votes_to_remove_cross_from_county_seal.htm" target="_blank">http://www.naco.org/Content/Co ntentGroups/Publications1/County_News1/20043/6-21-04/L_A__County_votes_to_remove_cross_from_county_seal.htm</a> "Bowing to the pressure of a threatened lawsuit from the American Civil Liberties Union of Southern California, the Los Angeles County Board of Supervisors voted 3 to 2 to remove a small cross from the county seal." "In late May, the ACLU sent the county a letter saying that the "Latin cross" on the seal is a religious symbol and represents government-sponsored Christianity. The letter gave the county two weeks to act to avoid a lawsuit." The ACLU files lawsuits when it finds a religion. That's the way it works.
Originally Posted By woody "When some middle school principal who once heard the phrase "separation of church and state" suspends a child for praying over lunch, the ACLU gets blamed." Why do schools get knee jerk reactions when they are confronted with religion? It isn't by accident. The ACLU is so lawsuit happy that the schools over-react on these issues. The fact is the ACLU sues over religious expression rather than sues to uphold religious expression. Whatever the student is claiming, he isn't telling the whole truth. Also, his comments is so political that his bias is clearly showing. Religious conservatives are BAD. No wonder he doesn't get it.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Also, his comments is so political that his bias is clearly showing.>> And yours aren't??
Originally Posted By woody "And yours aren't??" I thought I've made myself clear. The law students made many claims that are laughable such as "ACLU "stands up" for Christians." I'll take a moment to laugh it off.
Originally Posted By FaMulan First Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,<< Which has been interpereted as the Government should show no favor to a particular religion. America is pluralistic whether the extreme right wing Christians think so or not and our Government should not show favor to one religioni over a land of many.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<The law students made many claims that are laughable such as "ACLU "stands up" for Christians." I'll take a moment to laugh it off.>> That's the really cool thing about conservatives. If a 'liberal' says something that doesn't fit their pre-conceived notions, they claim the person is lying.
Originally Posted By woody "If a 'liberal' says something that doesn't fit their pre-conceived notions, they claim the person is lying." You fail to read my post. I said in Post 88... "Whatever the student is claiming, he isn't telling the whole truth." I guess Liberals have a hard time debating the issue. Conservatives have another point of view. You just don't get it.
Originally Posted By woody "Government should show no favor to a particular religion." Does the nativity scene represent what religion? Don't say Christian because it is a dodge. A religion is what doctrine you believe in like Catholic, Baptist, etc. There is no favoritism with religious symbolism.
Originally Posted By woody Post #85 shows what the ACLU really think about true religion. "I believe my Lord and savior to be a kind, just, and merciful God. I refuse to believe that He would condemn men and women of faith to Hell simply because their religion was doctrinally different." So all religions are the same. Christianity is anyone who believe in God. In addition, the literal interpretation is wrong. This guy has his right to his own religion, yet the ACLU shouldn't sue just because his idea of religion differs from mine. The ACLU thinks any religious symbolism is a religion. That is different than my interpretation of law and religion.
Originally Posted By TomSawyer >>Does the nativity scene represent what religion? Don't say Christian because it is a dodge. A religion is what doctrine you believe in like Catholic, Baptist, etc. There is no favoritism with religious symbolism.<< How can you argue with logic like that?
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Not only was it authentic frontier gibberish, but it expresses a courage little seen in this day and age!
Originally Posted By FaMulan Christianity is anyone who believe in God.<< Oh really? Jews believe in God as do Muslims. Hindus and Buddhists believe in a pantheon (for the more simple types that's multiple Gods and Goddesses) as do neopagans. And keep in mind, if the extreme right wing Christians want to rid the country of non-Christians, they'll be slitting America's throat. The movie industry (renownedly run by Jews) will head elsewhere as could banking and just think of all the Muslim and Hindu scientists and doctors we have here. I say again, America is a pluralistic society where we rely on and thrive by people of all faiths and races. That's what makes this country great, not extremist Christain rantings.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper I was watching the Today show this morning and Bill O'Reilly was being interviewed by one of the hottest liberals on TV...Katie Couric. Anyway, the interview was full of the usual stuff but at the end of it Katie asked O'Reilly what he thought of Speaker Hastert's attempts to get Congress to pass a resolution that the "Holiday Tree" at the Capitol building be called a "Christmas Tree". I think Bill was surprised by the question but he shot back at Katie: "You all have a tree right outside here (the world-famous Rockefeller Center Tree). What do you call that tree?" Of course Katie said it was a Christmas Tree. Bill said, "well, there you go then. I've got no problem with Hastert calling the tree a Christmas Tree."
Originally Posted By woody Tom Sawyer: What do you think about this ridiculousness? "And keep in mind, if the extreme right wing Christians want to rid the country of non-Christians, they'll be slitting America's throat." Gosh, I can't believe FaMulan said this slander. FaMulan is projecting what she might do if she was a Right-Wing Christian. In real life, no Conservative Christian will do this. "I say again, America is a pluralistic society where we rely on and thrive by people of all faiths and races. That's what makes this country great, not extremist Christain rantings." FaMulan: You show no respect for a pluralistic society in the way you slander Right Wing Christians. You call them extremists. You don't include Right Wing Christians into your definition of "all faiths". What makes America great? You evidently show nothing great from your misunderstanding of Christian faith and practice.
