Originally Posted By trekkeruss While I think we need to control immigration, the illegal immigrants here that are working are doing jobs that many Americans don't want to do. If we got rid of all these aliens tomorrow, our economy would come to a halt.
Originally Posted By alexbook >>The problem is Alex you also get free rein for drug traffickers.<< Seems to me we're not stopping them now. At least, not the bulk of them.
Originally Posted By pecos bill Trust me, illegals are not just doing jobs that Americans will not, the construction industry has been overwhelmed with the illegal work force. This has made it much more difficult for tradesmen in Carpentry, Masonry, concrete, Blacktop, etc etc etc to compete because of the drastic cut in wages due to cheap illegal labor. Most of you guys are in a white collar profession, but I work in construction and know exactly whats going on. I work with a lot of these guys, and most of them are fine men, but that does not diminish the fact that they are undercutting and stealing jobs from American workers. I know its not the "politically correct" point of view of our predominantly liberal group here, but the sad fact is that illegal labor is robbing many millions of American workers of the chance to make a decent living at their chosen vocations.
Originally Posted By alexbook <--Not a white collar worker. The way I see it, if they're working here, they're probably also buying stuff here. That's good for retail businesses. They need places to live, so that means more construction work. And so on. This country wouldn't exist as a country if it weren't for immigration, and yet we have a long, long tradition of each generation of immigrants hating the next. "They're not like us" has been said about the Irish, the Italians, the Jews, the Chinese, the Japanese, and more. I don't get it. I really don't.
Originally Posted By SpokkerJones We have a situation in California in which citizens are fleeing the state, but there is a net influx of people due to immigration. So we will have a future where unskilled, uneducated illegal immigrants burden the government. These people need to be allowed to acquire skills by applying to school and real legit work. Each successive generation, then, will be more and more successful. You will never, ever, in a million years, even with racial profiling and tough laws, stop the tide of illegal immigration without losing what makes us human beings. THEY want it more. I have no interest in securing the borders and getting rid of people trying to make it in America. I do have an interest in compassionate and tolerant solutions, as well as economically beneficial ones. You know what the Mexican work ethic is like. Now pair that up with education and skills and they'll be successful. That investment will pay off with each successive generation. "The problem is Alex you also get free rein for drug traffickers." Last time I heard drug trafficking was a crime. How would they have free reign? They already seem to have free reign under the current nonsensical war on drugs.
Originally Posted By SpokkerJones "I know its not the "politically correct" point of view of our predominantly liberal group here, but the sad fact is that illegal labor is robbing many millions of American workers of the chance to make a decent living at their chosen vocations." Americans talk about capitalism and free markets this and best man for the job that, but they LOVE protectionist policies. Ask that auto industry how that worked out.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< Most of you guys are in a white collar profession, but I work in construction and know exactly whats going on. >>> So true. That's one of the reasons that hardcore anti-immigrant laws have a tough time passing (with the notable exception of the recent AZ legislation). Although the stereotype is that Republicans are anti-immigrant, there are quite a few that are directly or indirectly involved in the construction industry that currently benefit greatly from the low-wage workforce provided by illegals. While these Republicans are gung-ho when it comes to building fences and hiring more Border Patrol officers, when it comes to doing the obvious things like cracking down on employers in a strict, enforceable, and universal manner, there's a quiet and subtle pushback.
Originally Posted By gurgitoy2 "The way I see it, if they're working here, they're probably also buying stuff here. That's good for retail businesses. They need places to live, so that means more construction work. And so on." Well, not necessarily. A lot of them send money back home. Sure, they have to eat and buy some clothes, but certainly not new, expensive stuff. Also, they tend to find places to live with family or friends, and don't mind cramped quarters. I've got a friend who lives in La Puente California, and quite a few of his neighbors have illegals living in their garages. The money they put back into society is very minimal.
Originally Posted By Mr X <a href="http://cagle.com/working/100422/fitzsimmons.jpg" target="_blank">http://cagle.com/working/10042...mons.jpg</a>
Originally Posted By ecdc >>I know its not the "politically correct" point of view of our predominantly liberal group here, but the sad fact is that illegal labor is robbing many millions of American workers of the chance to make a decent living at their chosen vocations.<< Actually, with the exception of spokker, I don't know anyone who has said illegal immigration isn't a problem. I think it's a problem, and I'm pretty dang liberal. The issue is this current bill that basically legalizes and institutionalizes racism by singling out people who look like they might be illegals - that will be Hispanics, Middle Easterners, and the occasional Native American when a cop gets confused.
Originally Posted By Labuda ^^ and any illegal immigrants who happen to be from Canada will get off scot-free. I wonder how a white person from, say, Scotland, would fare. Would s/he be asked for proof of citizenship?
Originally Posted By Mr X I would guess yes, occasionally. But certainly no where near the institutionalized level of harassment for Hispanics that this law certainly allows for and is designed for.
Originally Posted By SuperDry ^^^ According to Congressman Bilbray, it might depend on what kind of shoes the Scot was wearing. Also, I highly suspect a kilt or a bagpipe would be a dead give-away.
Originally Posted By xrayvision We're discussing immigration and employment issues regarding only one of our U.S. border neighbors, with the additional assumption that illegal immigrants are brown skinned. I was in a SoCal company (only 3 hours from the Mexico border) where all of us managers had to help with an inner company INS I-9 employment records audit, following Disneyland getting audited on their 1-9 forms by the government and being heavily fined for their records not being in order (to government satisfaction). We found that we had a few white collar workers from Canada without proper paperwork, or outdated paperwork, to legally work in the U.S. Those individuals did perform their jobs well, spoke perfect U.S. English and "looked" like U.S. citizens, and they were non brown skinned. But, from a legal employment perspective, the individuals had no legal right to be employed in the U.S. at the time of the audit and they were released until they could provide such proper paperwork. Those positions were competitively acquired and U.S. citizens, and/or people with the right to work in U.S., did loose out on those job opportunities until those positions became open again (and our HR employment function got seriously overhauled). So, looking at a person's physical features or listening to their spoken tongue are not an true-tell indications of whether they have a legal right to be in the U.S., or can legally work in the U.S. If people in the U.S. are going to be profiled based on physical attributes, and asked to present their U.S. documentation, what are the physical human features that are being approved for Arizona police to profile people to question their rights to be in the U.S, especially when we have illegal immigration coming from both U.S. borders with the immigrants, and U.S citizens, having different physical human features?
Originally Posted By pecos bill Last time I checked, Americans were not losing millions of jobs to illegal Swedes. This AZ law is nothing more than a statement, it will not result in massive deportations, and will have very little impact on the current situation. It is a cry for Washington to get off it's lazy, bloated butt and finally get something done about this problem.
Originally Posted By xrayvision Seeing as Arizona’s first inhabitants were multi-colored skinned and feathered dinosaurs, I wonder how their descendants, Arizona’s 107 species of reptiles like the red banded gecko, will fare under Arizona's colored-skinned alien profiling act.
Originally Posted By fkurucz ***>>I'm not crazy about the whole, "Let me zee you paperz." deal but I don't think anyone would disagree that our borders are an issue that needs to be fixed.<< Why?*** Because there are better ways to deal with this problem. Punish employers who hire illegals. Of course, the US Chamber of Commerce won't stand for that.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>The way I see it, if they're working here, they're probably also buying stuff here. That's good for retail businesses.<< So what? If these were performed by Americans the money wouldn't be spent? Plus theres the whole remitances issue. Billions of dollars are sent "home" every year. That's money that doesn't help the US economy.
