Originally Posted By Anatole69 @ 59 no that wouldn't be a mexican standoff because the policeman would simply take the person in under suspicion of being an illegal. - Anatole
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>This is not the America of the past, we are in crisis mode, and millions of illegal immigrants are not helping, but rather hindering that situation.< Agreed
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>Can't you just raise taxes on the wealthy?<< That's the whole problem X. The Wealthy benefit from the low wages paid to illegals while dumping the social costs on the struggling middle class.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>Some studies have shown that it negatively impacts the wages of high school drop outs significantly, but not that much among other groups.<< Baloney. Many illegals work in semi-skilled trades. They aren't all busboys and dishwashers.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>Based on what I have learned, illegal immigrants are probably more likely to lower your wage the less education you have.<< There is some truth to that, especially if you have an advanced degree. But that's what the H1-B Visa program is for.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <because the policeman would simply take the person in under suspicion of being an illegal.> I'm sure that will be the case before long. And then you have lawsuits for improper arrest, which is one reason why some cops in AZ have said they want no part of this. But if such a suit happens, the dept. is almost certain to fight it. And what can their defense be? It wasn't an improper arrest, because this person seemed to be an illegal immigrant. How was I supposed to know he was a citizen? Exactly. Which brings up the whole racial profiling thing again. And even if an arrested Hispanic citizen could presumably prove it and be released fairly quickly, who needs the harassment and fear of arrest? Is it any wonder Hispanics object to this?
Originally Posted By Mr X ***It's only a matter of time before a US citizen in AZ that's wearing the wrong kind of shoes gets accused of being an illegal. Forgive me, but isn't such a situation classically described as a Mexican Standoff?*** If Little X was just 10 or so years older (she's an AMERICAN red white and blue, though somewhat foreign looking and speaks English as a second language, thus not perfectly), I'd almost want to travel with her to Arizona just to have fun setting up the perfect test case!
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< But if such a suit happens, the dept. is almost certain to fight it. And what can their defense be? It wasn't an improper arrest, because this person seemed to be an illegal immigrant. How was I supposed to know he was a citizen? >>> The conundrum is that a citizen has no duty to prove it, nor to carry proof of such, but this law could be interpreted as requiring it in an indirect way in order to avoid arrest. Whether or not that's reasonable will be what a court will have to decide at one point.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 That's exactly the conundrum. But how could it be "reasonable" for Hispanic citizens to have to carry proof to avoid arrest, and non-Hispanics not to? No court could rule that way. So either you'd have tons of lawsuits by improperly arrested citizens, or we'd have to ALL carry "papers." And shouldn't the tea partiers be a lot more agitated about something like that? Compare the government helping borderline working-poor people buy health insurance, vs. the government being able to stop you on the street and demand to see your papers. I know which one says "fascism" or "too-powerful government" to me. Yet not a peep on this matter from that crowd so far that I've seen. I just don't think there's any way this thing stands up to court challenge.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>And shouldn't the tea partiers be a lot more agitated about something like that?<< Kind of reveals a little more about them, doesn't it.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<I know which one says "fascism" or "too-powerful government" to me. Yet not a peep on this matter from that crowd so far that I've seen.>> Exactly. They're not going to scream over this law because it doesn't affect them, the white folk. The AZ police will only be stopping folks of non-Caucasian status, which is the very group these teabagging morons hate so much. If the AZ police were also stopping suspected undocumented Canadians, who are mostly Caucasian, then they'd scream their teabagging heads off.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 To be fair, I think the (true) libertarian wing of the tea partiers might object. But I don't think that's the dominant wing. I don't think even think most of them would give a hoot about Canadians. I don't think most of them would scream their heads off until and unless the police start asking EVERYONE (read: white Americans) for their papers, in the way that they scan or do random patdowns at everyone at the airport, not just the "fits the terrorist profile" people.
Originally Posted By fkurucz **>>And shouldn't the tea partiers be a lot more agitated about something like that?<< Kind of reveals a little more about them, doesn't it.** It would be amusing to see a WASPy Tea Partier, the kind that flies a "Don't Tread On Me." flag from his porch be pulled over by a hispanic police officer, who would then ask for proof of legal residence.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>I don't think even think most of them would give a hoot about Canadians. I don't think most of them would scream their heads off until and unless the police start asking EVERYONE (read: white Americans) for their papers, in the way that they scan or do random patdowns at everyone at the airport, not just the "fits the terrorist profile" people. << And it could definitely come to that, in the spirit of non-discrimination. Get pulled over for speeding: "Your papers please." They forget that civil liberties protect EVERYONE. Remove them and we are all vulnerable.
Originally Posted By Anatole69 ^^ I thought everyone was guarenteed fair and equal protection under the law. I just don't see this standing up in court unless everyone is required to carry their ID regardless of the ethnic background and also it can be proven that people are asked for it equally and that some ethnicities are not asked for in an unequal percentage. - Anatole
Originally Posted By SpokkerJones "This is not the America of the past, we are in crisis mode, and millions of illegal immigrants are not helping, but rather hindering that situation." Actually, the Arizona law does make us a little more like the America of the past... how long before we start rounding up Mexicans and throwing them in camps? By the way, the financial meltdown probably did way more damage than any illegal immigrant. Illegal immigrants are probably more loyal to this country than Wall Street!
Originally Posted By SpokkerJones "This is not the America of the past, we are in crisis mode, and millions of illegal immigrants are not helping, but rather hindering that situation." Actually, the Arizona law does make us a little more like the America of the past... how long before we start rounding up Mexicans and throwing them in camps? By the way, the financial meltdown probably did way more damage than any illegal immigrant. Illegal immigrants are probably more loyal to this country than Wall Street!
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< It would be amusing to see a WASPy Tea Partier, the kind that flies a "Don't Tread On Me." flag from his porch be pulled over by a hispanic police officer, who would then ask for proof of legal residence. >>> It reminds me of airport security measures. These people tend to be among the most gung-ho that we should increase national security in order to prevent another 9/11-type event. Yet, they tend to complain the loudest when they personally have to deal with airport security. They're all for extra scrutiny, as long as it's applied to "them" and not "us."
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>They're all for extra scrutiny, as long as it's applied to "them" and not "us."<< Bingo.
Originally Posted By DAR As Dennis Miller once said you're more than welcome to come to this country, just sign the guestbook on your way in.
