Originally Posted By LVBelle >>Free Jinger!<< ROFL!!! Best line of the thread!>> I wish I could take full credit for it, it has long been a rallying cry over at the Television Without Pity forums!
Originally Posted By Lisann22 The Duggars are followers of Quiverfull. For which the male and females have very defined roles. My observations are very close to LVBelle's. Here's a bit of Wikipedia on Quiverfull. <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiverfull" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q uiverfull</a> This stood out for me, now mind you I'll take a slaying due to it being a feminist but read it anyway... ****From feminist Cheryl Lindsey Seelhoff, a former ardent Quiverfull adherent, birth-mother of eleven children, and former editor of Gentle Spirit Magazine, argues that the Quiverfull movement is one "in which women and children are routinely and systematically subordinated and subjugated by the men in their lives - fathers, husbands, older sons, sons, pastors, elders, leaders - as a matter of biblical principle."[31] Seelhoff charges that Quiverful adherents "never talk about the victims of the movement, other than to distance themselves, to explain how it is that the victims are aberrations," and do not talk about "the way the lives of so many, many women in that movement have been all but destroyed - women with 5, 7, 9, 11 or more children".*** I also had read this article a long time ago (2005) and researched to find it. This will probably get me burned at the stake but I tend to lean with this columnist. It's over the top yes but a lot of what he was feeling then I feel today about the whole thing and I'm a Christian, a devout one. **************************************** God Does Not Want 16 Kids Arkansas mom gives birth to a whole freakin' baseball team. How deeply should you cringe? By Mark Morford, SF Gate Columnist Wednesday, October 19, 2005 Who are you to judge? Who are you to say that the more than slightly creepy 39-year-old woman from Arkansas who just gave birth to her 16th child yes that's right 16 kids and try not to cringe in phantom vaginal pain when you say it, who are you to say Michelle Duggar is not more than a little unhinged and sad and lost? And furthermore, who are you to suggest that her equally troubling husband -- whose name is, of course, Jim Bob and he's hankerin' to be a Republican senator and try not to wince in sociopolitical pain when you say that -- isn't more than a little numb to the real world, and that bringing 16 hungry mewling attention-deprived kids (and she wants more! Yay!) into this exhausted world zips right by "touching" and races right past "disturbing" and lurches its way, heaving and gasping and sweating from the karmic armpits, straight into "Oh my God, what the hell is wrong with you people?" But that would be, you know, mean. Mean and callous to suggest that this might be the most disquieting photo you see all year, this bizarre Duggar family of 18 spotless white hyperreligious interchangeable people with alarmingly bad hair, the kids ranging in ages from 1 to 17, worse than those nuked Smurfs in that UNICEF commercial and worse than all the horrific rubble in Pakistan and worse than the cluster-bomb nightmare that is Katie Holmes and Tom Cruise having a child as they suck the skin from each other's Scientological faces and even worse than that huge 13-foot python which ate that six-foot alligator and then exploded. It's wrong to be this judgmental. Wrong to suggest that it is exactly this kind of weird pathological protofamily breeding-happy gluttony that's making the world groan and cry and recoil, contributing to vicious overpopulation rates and unrepentant economic strain and a bitter moral warpage resulting from a massive viral outbreak of homophobic neo-Christians across our troubled and Bush-ravaged land. Or is it? Is it wrong to notice how all the Duggar kids' names start with the letter J (Jeremiah and Josiah and Jedediah and Jesus, someone please stop them), and that if you study the above photo (or the even more disturbing family Web site) too closely you will become rashy and depressed and you will crave large quantities of alcohol and loud aggressive music to deflect the creeping feeling that this planet is devolving faster than you can suck the contents from a large bong? But I'm not judging. <<i>please follow the below link</i>> <a href="http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2005/10/19/notes101905.DTL" target="_blank">http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/arch ive/2005/10/19/notes101905.DTL</a>
Originally Posted By barboy I dig your erratic honesty where you just let it all hang out. Look at your style: "Orator's Golden Rule: "It's better to keep your mouth shut, and let people think you an idiot than to open it and remove all doubt. *big deep sigh* Yep that'd be me alright." I like it--- you bring more color and 3-D to an otherwise sometimes sterile, flat and intangible message board. DAD, you give depth to my laptop screen; so yes you entertain me(in a good way).
Originally Posted By jonvn Gee, religious nuts. Who would have thought. "But, are you criticizing ALL of homeschooling?" If you know how to teach kids, sure. But the people who I've seen home school, particularly large families, are neither qualified, trained, or educated themselves. And they are trying to teach and control 10 kids at once. You tell me what sort of education these children will end up with. And, yes. I'm going to judge them. If they do something as irresponsible as having this many kids, and then display them for the entire media, yes. And when I see other people who have 10 or so kids and through that are damaging their children? Yes, I'm going to, because children have a right to a decent upbringing, and parents DO NOT have a right to do with them as they please. They are not posessions.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Seelhoff charges that Quiverful adherents "never talk about the victims of the movement, other than to distance themselves, to explain how it is that the victims are aberrations,"<< Ah. A pyramid scheme.
Originally Posted By mele Thank you for your post, Lisann. Speaking of Quiverfull (horrible name)...I really wonder if the wife feels she has the right to say no to having more children? Who is she to tell God that she doesn't want anymore babies? How dare she tell her husband that she doesn't want to be pregnant anymore? I just think of how rough pregnancies are on women's bodies and it seems really irresponsible to continue pumping them out. My grandmother had 5 babies in 7 years and she died because of it. Her children, my mother and her siblings, are frighteningly messed up because of losing her. Most moms tend to go on overdrive, no matter how thoroughly exhausted they are, they do their best to be supermoms.Usually we find it difficult to find the time and energy to take care of ourselves, we get lost in the craziness of everyday life with children. But sooner or later, we all have to learn that to take care of ourselves. It isn't selfish to re-charge. I get the feeling that the mother in this article doesn't get that chance at all. Having 17 babies (or more) will most likely catch up with her.
Originally Posted By Lisann22 That's what I was trying to get at in my earlier posts about the family dynamics and who's left with the responsibility of really raising the kids. This topic came up amongst friends with the same intensity at the time I had read about the one daughter cooking for the "entire" family. That kind of stuff really rubbed me wrong. I'm also curious about what happens to their lack of privacy in the dorm room setting. Not much time as young women and men to discover yourself if you know what I mean. There's something really unhealthy in that for me. I'm going to be so curious to see how this family turns out. I doubt we will ever get their true feelings though unless one of them falls on hard times and ends up on the Surreal Life as the kicked out member of the Duggars.
Originally Posted By ecdc Thanks for the info, lisann. You and LVBelle have added very important information to this discussion, and I thank you both.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Not much time as young women and men to discover yourself if you know what I mean. There's something really unhealthy in that for me.<< In this uber-religious family, I'm sure that's precisely the idea. I have no doubt that these kids are taught that something as natural for a teenager as masturbation is a terrible sin. They're taught that birth control is a terrible sin. And why on earth would these kids question that if they owe their very existence to their parents thinking that way. I know there have been some heated discussions about how many children is too many, the time spent with the kids, etc., etc., and those are worthwhile discussions. But for me, it's less about that and more about this particular couples warped belief system that is absolutely not going to produce healthy members of a society. I know some people are sick of the religious discussions, and they do sometimes enter into threads unnecessarily. But this ain't one of them - these people's beliefs are the driving cause behind how they raise their children. And it doesn't look all that fantastic or "aw, isn't that sweeeeeet" to me.
Originally Posted By mele I think this is good quote from the wiki article: "John Piper's Desiring God Ministries criticizes Quiverfull by saying that just because something is a gift from the Lord does not mean that it is wrong to be a steward of when or whether you will come into possession of it. It is wrong to reason that since A is good and a gift from the Lord, then we must pursue as much of A as possible. God has made this a world in which tradeoffs have to be made and we cannot do everything to the fullest extent. For kingdom purposes, it might be wise not to get married. And for kingdom purposes, it might be wise to regulate the size of one's family and to regulate when the new additions to the family will likely arrive. As Wayne Grudem has said, "it is okay to place less emphasis on some good activities in order to focus on other good activities."
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Not much time as young women and men to discover yourself if you know what I mean. There's something really unhealthy in that for me.>> Isn't that what bathrooms are for? ;-)
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<No time for the girls, their busy cooking and cleaning.>> I've heard that the washing machine spin cycle can be nice... ;-)
Originally Posted By x Pirate_Princess x <<If you have so many kids that you can not take care of them well, and continue to do so without regard to the well being of the children you already have, then that is uncaring and amoral.>> But does that description fit DVC_dad? No, it does not. ------------- And does it fit the Duggars? No, it does not.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I'm glad we all now know which religious values are incorrect to instill in children, and those are the religious values of the Duggars. But just know what is bad doesn’t do me much good. I would be interested in seeing a list of the values that are OK. Are Catholics OK? How about Jews? And Muslims... with their beliefs concerning women they SURELY can't be OK; can they? Please answer as quickly as you can. I want to know which religious values are the proper ones for my children. Thanks P.S. While we are on the topic, perhaps you have some preferred political values also. Could you tell me what those are??
Originally Posted By jonvn "But does that description fit DVC_dad? No, it does not." WHy do people keep assuming that I am talking about this person, when I am not even mentioning him at all? Is this going to happen now with every topic? If I post on the drunk flight attendant story, is someone going to chime in with "But does DVC_DAD work as a drunk flight attendant?" If I post about Barry Bonds, is someone going to say "But remember, DVC_DAD did not take steroids." Geeze.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Well RT, you're supposed to have your cake and eat it too, so to speak. We're all about religious freedom in this country, as long as we all approve of your religion. We also don't care what you do behind closed doors, but if we do find out, it has to meet with our approval. Being entitled to privacy and enjoying freedoms has its limits, you know.
Originally Posted By jonvn "I'm glad we all now know which religious values are incorrect to instill in children, and those are the religious values of the Duggars." I don't see why theirs are any different than anyone else's.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>I'm glad we all now know which religious values are incorrect to instill in children, and those are the religious values of the Duggars.<< No one's stopping them.
Originally Posted By Lisann22 ^^^ Nope, I've only talked about my concerns and curiousity of it all. They can do whatever the heck they want. It's just my opinion that I think they are looney tunes.
