Originally Posted By quincytoo >>> have to agree. And it's not just receiving individual *attention*, but able to *be* an idividual. I watched the special on this family and it kind of creeped me out. The kids all have to dress alike. The boys haircuts are indentical. The girls all have long hair and always have to wear dresses. Their names all begin with "J". Not much individuality there. It just seems kind of Stepford-ish to me. <<< This family creeped me out from the first time I saw them on TV...Few nights ago saw a blur on TV that she has had kid 17, and she wants more???
Originally Posted By jonvn "Still their choice, of course" Not entirely. Children are people, too. They aren't owned property and they have a right to a decent upbringing. These people did not want a family, they wanted a circus act. This sort of thing is immoral.
Originally Posted By Liberty Belle >>"Still their choice, of course" Not entirely.<< Yeah, but it is, though. Until having kids becomes illegal, it is their choice, regardless of whether you or anyone else thinks it's right or wrong.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Hey, at least they can care for all of those kids and aren't living off the system.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad Okay I've read every single post here in great detail. Having 6 kids, oldest is 12 yrs, and #7 on the way, I feel that I have just a "tad" better insight into this situation, which doesn't make me right, and anyone who disagrees with me, wrong. It just gives a different view, nothing more. There are three things that really struck a chord with me (be that good or bad) in this post that other people have said. They are: 1.) <<<There is no way 2 people can parent that many kids effectively. >>> Depends on what you define as effective parenting, and we won't know until we see how the Duggers' kids turn out. Will they become effective, emotionally healthly, productive, responsible members of society? If so, then they did a fine job IMHO, and the naysayer's will have to eat crow. HOWEVER, To be honest, I see areas where my wife and I fall short with "only 6 kids" due to the number of individuals with individual needs, individual thoughts, individual personalities, that require individual time and individual love and individual affection. We do what we can, and it is a 24/7 job. So why then do we keep having more? It is a simple answer. We love children, particularly our own, and we are selfish and want to please ourselves, by having more kids to love with more kids. It really is that simple. 2.) >>>I think this family, even though they have 17 kids, is an example for all American families. They do something called COMMUNICATION! And WORKING TOGETHER...>>> One thing I have learned and learned quickly with 6 kids, (and there are plenty of families with FAR more than 6) is that you cannot substitute TEAM WORK if, and only IF, you are a family that functions well, and we do just that. I hate to drag this up, but I LOVE IT when people come up to us at restaurants, theater, movies, sporting events, even WDW, and say some variation of ," Wow your children are so well behaved, I only have (1 or 2 or whatever) kids and I can't manage....blah blah blah... THE SECRET IS that when you reach "X" number of kids, you have to take control of your house. The kids want that, they need that, they long for security and comfort. Children NEED parents that they can go to, if for no other reason than to be told, "everything is going to be all right," and to receive love and affection. If we let our 6 kids rule our house, and never defined the boundaries, we would live in chaos. That isn't healty, and I know plenty of families with only ONE CHILD that live that way daily. 3. <<<Some are just born parents. Some are born to be musicians, artists, writers, whatever. Quite possibly the talents of the mother and father here are rooted in parenting.>>> This says it better than anything else I could have put into words. Many people have children that ... quite honestly ... probably shouldn't have. But society sometimes gives the message that there is "something wrong" with NOT wanting children. I think that if you don't want children, then you shouldn't have children. Likewise, if you do, then have at it. It is an inherent human right to reproduce. Okay where is MY soap box? Oh here it is. Parenting, The way we do it... TIME and LOVE: I sacrifice a great deal of my "personal time" to spend it with my children in a quality time, individually. I do this because I realize that I have already put my children at a disadvantage in regards to individual quality time with mom and dad. What is the result? I am absolutely positive that MY children get more one on one time with me and or my wife than the average family with only one or two children. I have never felt that I need a break from my family, or that I am missing out on anything with my own friends. Right now, I get so much joy and satisfaction from my children. It's simply, what I do. PROVISIONS and EDUCATION: We eat at the family dinner table. It is a rule that is absolutely unbendable. My children all have their own bedroom. My children all go to private schools, and I'm NOT talking about some small, non-accredited, Christian school that has a graduating class of 6 each year. (Though there is nothing wrong with that.) My oldest son is only 12 about to start 7th grade at a very large school for "gifted" kids. He makes straight A's, plays football, wrestles, and is involved heavily in (oh my gosh! whatever shall I do?) church. He wants to be an orthopedic surgeon. Yeah, I know, lots of you will say there is no way he could know what he wants to do at age 12. Does that mean I should tell him that he doesn't know? Heck no. Instead I tell him, "Son don't ever, EVER let anyone tell you that you "can't"... that goes for even me. If you want to do or be something, you find a way to make it happen." My daughter, who is 8, wants to be a veterinarian. She isn't the best student, but she works hard to make her very good grades, and I know she will reach her goals. My 6 year old son, was baptized last week, on his on volition, without coercion. In fact I wanted him to wait a few more years, but he has a complete understanding of what that means to HIM. He wants to be a minister. He says all of the dinnertime graces, is our family peace maker, and was just born to be more emotionally connected than most. Wow we almost seem like the Protestant version of a good Catholic family... lol RELIGION: Relax...my evangelical kids are "Non-Christian Safe." We teach our children respect of others, diversity, individual thinking. One of my oldest son's very best friends is Indian and Hindu. My 6 year old son is in love with a girl in his class who is of a differnt ehtnicity. He can't "see in color" yet and I think that means we are doing something right. I have a very good friend who is gay, and I'll have words with anyone who mentions it to me as if it matters. Wow!!! Can you belive there are people raising kids like this on the Far Religious Right? But serously, you'll never find my kids wondering around preaching, telling people why "they" are wrong, and "we" are right. Our kids are taught to live by example. They are taught the things you DO far far out weigh the things you say, and that the individual you meet has their own thoughts, feelings, convictions, and beliefs. We are to respect that. I could go on, but I won't bore you with the rest. After all, I shouldn't be using this post as a commercial for my family and as promotion for my opinions on parenting. There's so much more, but I am quite sure I have worn out my welcome in this thread about 450 words ago. Really my entire post can be summed up in this: The Duggers may not do things the way you do them, but come on, you who are condemning them, you really don't care about their kids or them; nay, your protests come from something far deeper than your bogus outward concern for their children. The reasons for your disapproval are known only to you and are probably different for everyone. And this exchange should go into the LP post, hall of fame... <<<"There's no f'ing way that these parents are really going to get to know each kid." You're entitled to your opinion, but just the same, there's no f'ing way, as you say, you know that for a certainty.>>>
Originally Posted By DVC_dad ^ ^ ^ ...and I know I'll always have room and solid parenting ability for "just one more" however many that may become.
Originally Posted By DlandJB They may get along with each other well and can sing Kumbayaa, but those kids will not ever be able to really go out in the world and fit in with the majority of society. Maybe that's their parents' goal, but the point remains. I know this post will be attacked. There. I said it. Flame away. >>> Someone may have already addressed this, but I'm behind on the thread. Not meaning to flame, but it strikes me funny that the assumption is that these kids will walk in lock step with their parents through their whole lives and beyond childhood. Do you know any teenagers who do? More likely they will be individuals. I know a number of kids who are homeschooled, but they are not locked up in ivory towers -- many are involved in school athletics and music programs too. These people are not living on some compound in the boonies. And, although it wouldn't be my choice, I went to Catholic school and grew up around a good number of families with lots of kids - one family had 14 and they were about as close as any family could be. Finally..."my uterus, my choice" should extend to women who want no children and women who want lots. As long as they are not just out there to suck the system dry, it really isn't my business how many kids they want to have.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>your protests come from something far deeper than your bogus outward concern for their children<< My "protests" come from the wierdness and "stunt" aspect to this who enterprise of theirs. Had they chosen to go about their business without making the whole thing into a "ain't we the cutest thing?" spectacle, then I wouldn't have a thing to say about the choices they make. But because they are so media-hungry, they open themselves up to criticism and speculation about what exactly they are doing this for.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 <<The Duggers may not do things the way you do them, but come on, you who are condemning them, you really don't care about their kids or them; nay, your protests come from something far deeper than your bogus outward concern for their children. The reasons for your disapproval are known only to you and are probably different for everyone.>> Wow. You end your otherwise thoughtful and articulate post with "anyone who disagrees with me is dishonest and a liar." Disappointing.
Originally Posted By x Pirate_Princess x DVC_dad... I just gotta applaud you for stepping in. I agree with your post 100% Since I'm not in a position to have more kids right now (you know, not married) I am looking forward to teaching. Can you tell me, all you nay-sayers, if you believe that an effective teacher can give each individual student in her classroom of 20-30 individual attention? I believe it can be done. Not once a day, that's for sure, but once a week, getting each child to "check in" with a teacher or parent is, in my opinion, satisfactory. DVC_dad has 6, almost 7 kids. How many days in a week? 7? OMG! Each child gets "his" night with mom and/or dad. "How's school going?" "Let's talk about that baseball game" and this usually opens up the doors of communication for families. My 2 girls would love nothing more than for me to leave them alone (not talk to them, I mean) except to feed them all day long. But I'm not like that. If I hear that a conflict is arising, I will take aim to stop it. I'm sure, after 5 kids, the mother in this story has the instincts of ... I dunno what. She can head off a 2 year old tantrum before it erupts. She can calm her 5 year old's fears about the dark. She can talk to her older daughters about love and marriage, but does she really need to? She's setting an example. Obviously, even with all those kids, the parents are effective partners as well as parents because, well, you can't have another one without intimacy. So basically, unless we live with this family for a week or more, we will never know exactly how they parent their 17 kids. So I think it's better to be supportive and not pass judgment until we see proof otherwise.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan From their website: >>Jim Bob & Michelle Duggar married July 21st, 1984. At that time, they chose to use the birth control pill. They thought, “We don’t want children right now. We can’t afford them. We want children in our timing, when we’re ready.†Four years later they decided to have their first child. Then, Michelle went back on the pill, but she conceived and had a miscarriage. At that point they talked with a Christian medical doctor and read the fine print in the contraceptives package. They found that while taking the pill you can get pregnant and then miscarry. They were grieved! They were Christians! They were pro-life! They realized that their selfish actions had taken the life of their child. They prayed and asked God to forgive them, and to teach them to love children like He loves children. They asked God to bless them with as many children as He saw fit in His timing. Right after that Michelle got pregnant with twins! To date they have been blessed with 16 children, (10 boys and 6 girls) Joshua, Jana & John-David (twins), Jill, Jessa, Jinger, Joseph, Josiah, Joy-Anna, Jedidiah & Jeremiah (twins), Jason, James, Justin, Jackson, Johannah (& Jennifer due July 28, 2007).<< So there you have it.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Can you tell me, all you nay-sayers, if you believe that an effective teacher can give each individual student in her classroom of 20-30 individual attention?<< No way. Doesn't mean they can't be an effective teacher, but there's simply no mathematical way a teacher in a classroom of 30 is going to be able to devote more individual time than a teacher in a classroom of, say, 10. But comparing parenting to a classroom teacher is an apples and oranges comparison anyway.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>you can't have another one without intimacy<< Technically, it takes a couple of minutes and a Barry White tune. : )
Originally Posted By x Pirate_Princess x The what's your point was for post #114, not 115. And, well, you're right about the couple minutes...but seriously, they still have to find that couple minutes. And I doubt it's a "let's just do it and see if we can get pregnant again"...I really think they have the intimate act, and get pregnant if they get pregnant. I doubt she does any fertility awareness so they only do it "to get pregnant."
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>And I doubt it's a "let's just do it and see if we can get pregnant again"<< See post 113. They leave it in God's hands. But my point was there is indeed a motive behind all of this -- they feel that they "sinned" by her having a miscarriage, and their pennance is to eschew all birth control and leave it to "God's will." I think that is a wildly unhealthy mind set, to blame themselves for a miscarriage in that way. That was my point. It bothers me.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Also, calling using birth control "selfish actions" is rather sickening, quite frankly.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Also, calling using birth control "selfish actions" is rather sickening, quite frankly.<< Absolutely. This looks more and more like they're trying to spread their own narrow view of Christianity to the world. I couldn't agree more with 2oony's comments about the "stunt" and publicity seeking. And how nice of them to basically say anyone who's been on birth control and had a miscarriage is a sinner. Jerks. Maybe their children will turn out just fine. Honestly. But it looks like the chances are fairly high that at least some of their children won't be all that tolerant of anyone who doesn't follow their perverse brand of Evangelicalism. In my book, that's hardly a recipe for a positive addition for society. I'd rather have a tolerant, kind-hearted garbage man than a successful business man who's a bigot.
