Originally Posted By DVC_dad <<<because they are so media-hungry, they open themselves up to criticism and speculation about what exactly they are doing this for.>>> Their motive, which is a word I am sure you have heard, doesn't make them bad parents.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad <<<Wow. You end your otherwise thoughtful and articulate post with "anyone who disagrees with me is dishonest and a liar." Disappointing.>>> I'm sorry, my goal really was to have your approval.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad <<<You have six children. Let's assume you work 8 hours a day. And that you leave for work before they get up, allowing you to get home, say about 5pm. Say they have bedtime at 8pm. Not unreasonable, I don't think. You also eat dinner, assume that takes about oh, an hour. That leaves about 2 hours for you to give individual attention to 6 kids. What is that about 15 minutes per child? I guess that's plenty. Say I'm off a bit, up to maybe double. That is 15 to 30 minutes of individual attention per child. But that is if you do nothing but devote individual attention to each child. If you do anything else, like look online, that time is reduced. If you think that's enough, that's up to you. I don't think it is, personally.>>> jonvn, I am a full time stay home dad. You may want to rework your figures into a 24/7 ... 365 example.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad <<<I probably care more about them than you seem to, in that you keep producing them oblivious to their individual needs and how it may affect them.>>> You have a right to your opinion, again we will never know which one of us cares about other people's children more will we? And honestly, that isn't the point at all.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad <<<Six is a lot of kids. If you can handle them, fine. But don't expect me to believe you are somehow more caring than I am or for others who express the same ideas. Because as far as I'm concerned, you are far less caring and far less moral than people who have fewer kids.>>> Hurl your insults elsewhere jonvn. My ability will speak for itself beginning in just a few years as these eaglets begin to leave the nest. Your comments only strengthen my opinion that I am raising fantastic children, into responsible adults. Again, it isn't a contest. I do however respect your opinion and I agree on one point that you have made clearly. It is very difficult for people who have far less children, to believe that someone else can do it better, with more.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad <<<I keep going back to this idea that the tipping point in this couple's lives was the "selfish act" of using birth control. That somehow a miscarriage is a message from God. It's up to everyone to interpret these things as they wish, but to me, this isn't healthy, and it is likely one of the 'lessons' they are instilling in their kids as well. That's the part that disturbs me far more than whatever total of children they produce, because I believe it is an unhealthy mindset.>>> I totally agree with you. But they still can be good parents.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Here's why I don't feel like I have the right to condemn these people, even if I wanted to do so, in no particular order. - while indeed I am a child support enforcement attorney and see all sorts of parents every day who shouldn't be one, it makes me happy to see people who can make it work. And while this couple's version of a family may not comport with many others, still and all they seem reasonably content, and that's really all one can ask. Both parents are present, and love all their kids. - it's a personal thing for me, but since I have no children of my own, I don't feel I can possibly relate. Lord knows we've tried to have kids, but it just wasn't meant to be. We only wanted one, but I'm not going to begrudge these people 17, no matter what we think their motive might be. - if I'm for a woman's right to choose, and I am, then I can't have it both ways. If she keeps choosing and choosing and choosing, so be it. What's immoral, as some others have accused these people of being, is some outsider telling them they have to stop. Who the hell is ANYONE to tell these people enough's enough? They're not a burden on the government, they're entirely self-supportive. Who is this hurting? So far, nobody as far as we can tell. Projecting psychological models on them is simply none of our business. To me, it's a matter of lifestyle choice and orientation. Sound familiar? It is a free country, after all. I don't believe I have any business telling Fred he can't fall in love with Phil and marry him. Unfortunately, that's still a battle we're fighting. So where do I get off telling Mom and Dad they can't conceive another child to love? Griswold v. Connecticut tells us that a law prohibiting the use of contraceptives violates the marital right to privacy. Looking back on that 1965 case, many of us today can't believe we actually needed a Supreme Court case to make that the law of the land. How does insisting this lawfully wedded couple USE contraceptives comport with Griswold? Don't THEY have a right to their marital privacy, even if by them taking advantage of it it makes them public? If you think you can neuter these people in the bedroom, then where do we stop? How about if we tell some of you hey, you better stop at two, your parenting abilities aren't that hot. Matter of fact, since you're Catholic, you better not have any sex at all, and we mean it, because we wouldn't want you to do something against your religion in order to conform with society's demand on your sexual behavior. So, while I might not necessarily agree with their decisions, it isn't for me to say. I might not understand why Jim likes Joe instead of that hot babe Bambi, but Jim might not understand why I can't see the appeal in Joe, either. It's what makes us all human. I might, hell WOULD go insane if I fathered 17 kids, but if it's working for these people, it's my duty and responsibility to support them, or at least remain neutral, but certainly not condemn them. It's just not my place.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad Inspector 57: You said: <<<Wow. You end your otherwise thoughtful and articulate post with "anyone who disagrees with me is dishonest and a liar." Disappointing.>>> I didn't call anyone dishonest, and I didn't call anyone a liar, but perhaps it may be implied. But allow me repharse the statement. What I meant to convey was this: I find it very hard to believe, although I suppose it isn't impossible, that people who discredit the Dugger's, are doing so out of love, care, or even concern for the Dugger's children. I get this same thing all the time. Read what jonvn is saying about ME. And please, by all means, I won't paraphrase, let me cut and paste... <<<Because as far as I'm concerned, you are far less caring and far less moral than people who have fewer kids.>>> It gets old for those of us who have more than the average number of children having to constantly defend the size of our families. I agree, Inspector, that last statement that you are referring to is basically loaded with venom. It isn't a logical statement and I openly apologize and retract it. I was striking out in frustration. And I apologize specifically to you Inspector for post #142. I hope this clears the air. This is a pretty hot topic for me, I apoliogize for such long and numerous posts. jonvn, we just need to agree to disagree. I never said that I care about anyone's kids more than you do. I never implied that I am a better parent than you are.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder <<<Six is a lot of kids. If you can handle them, fine. But don't expect me to believe you are somehow more caring than I am or for others who express the same ideas. Because as far as I'm concerned, you are far less caring and far less moral than people who have fewer kids.>>> Only an ass would make a comment that gets incredibly personal like this. For someone who doesn't believe in God jonvn you spend an inordinate amount of time on a Disney message board acting like one. And who knew God was so misanthropic?
Originally Posted By mele DVC_dad and I rarely see eye-to-eye but to say that he is an uncaring and amoral parent, simply for having more children that most parents, crosses the line and just makes you sound like an idiotic jerk. You seem to really want people to listen to your views about things yet you throw out statements that make it impossible for anyone to listen to anything you say.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>I totally agree with you. But they still can be good parents.<< Maybe they are. We don't have the whole picture, of course. And as we know, parenting is a lifelong job with lots of phases, times you are needed more than others. It does present an interesting debate, though. How many kids IS too many? Assuming they are able to have, say 10 more children in the next 10 years (if her uterus doesn't fall to the floor one afternoon like a withered raisin, begging for mercy before that), is two people having 27 children too much? How about 37? Is there a point at which it simply becomes irresponsible to keep having children, assuming the have the financial ability to afford it, or is it all entirely up to God to decide when enough is enough?
Originally Posted By jonvn "Hurl your insults elsewhere jonvn." Hurl your own elsewhere. You said my caring of kids was "bogus," which makes your comments about insults to be, well, BOGUS. "I am a full time stay home dad." Yes, well, the people I've known with lots of kids aren't quite as fortunate as you are. "Your comments only strengthen my opinion that I am raising fantastic children, into responsible adults. " What parent thinks otherwise? "It is very difficult for people who have far less children, to believe that someone else can do it better, with more." Sanctimony. Pompous, too. In the meantime, studies show that children who come from smaller families end up doing better in life. "if I'm for a woman's right to choose, and I am, then I can't have it both ways" If someone had 17 abortions, I'd think rather low of them, actually. Just because you CAN do such a thing does not mean you SHOULD do such a thing. "I never said that I care about anyone's kids more than you do. I never implied that I am a better parent than you are." You said exactly and specifically that, and I quoted it in this very reply.
Originally Posted By jonvn "For someone who doesn't believe in God jonvn you spend an inordinate amount of time on a Disney message board acting like one." And this is how you deal with conflict, to bring out this sort of comment. You do it all the time to everyone. You act like a child.
Originally Posted By jonvn "DVC_dad and I rarely see eye-to-eye but to say that he is an uncaring and amoral parent" If you have so many kids that you can not take care of them well, and continue to do so without regard to the well being of the children you already have, then that is uncaring and amoral.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<If you have so many kids that you can not take care of them well, and continue to do so without regard to the well being of the children you already have, then that is uncaring and amoral.>> But does that description fit DVC_dad? No, it does not.
Originally Posted By jonvn "But does that description fit DVC_dad? No, it does not." I don't know. I have not seen how he or his kids live. I HAVE seen how others in similar situations live, and it does describe them. If someone is able to take care of their children, give them the time and attention they need, it doesn't matter if they have one or one hundred children. But there are only so many hours in the day, and if you keep having children regardless of the consequences, I think you are doing them a disservice. And if you don't seem to care about that disservice, as the people I know do, then they are being abusive and amoral.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "And this is how you deal with conflict, to bring out this sort of comment. You do it all the time to everyone. You act like a child." That sort of comment is true. I notice you don't deny it. You can dish the ultra-personal comments but when you're only retort is I act like a child, then obviously you can't take it. And I'll take behaving like a child for a hundred, Alex. You tell people their belief in God is a fantasy, you tell someone else you don't even know their parenting skills are lacking, and you act as if it's a heresy to criticize you. Who made you God, Nadelberg?
Originally Posted By jonvn "You can dish the ultra-personal" Personal comments on this topic were first sent my way. And again, in this case, with our exchange, they started with your comments directed at me. So, when I respond, I somehow can dish them out but not take them. I see. Well, that makes a lot of logical sense. "You tell people their belief in God is a fantasy" Yes, it is. Much like they have all been throughout history. Don't like it? Oh well. Take that up with Zeus. He was worshipped as a real god with real devotees for quite a long time. "you tell someone else you don't even know their parenting skills are lacking" Much like they said that my concern for children was fake, and that they were a better parent than I. "you act as if it's a heresy to criticize you" And you act like I'm supposed to take these comments and say nothing in response. Of course. "Who made you God, Nadelberg? " I already told you: there isn't one. Now why don't you go run along and play. One day you'll grow up and be able to talk to people like an adult.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "I already told you: there isn't one. Now why don't you go run along and play. One day you'll grow up and be able to talk to people like an adult." You've got this pattern. When backed into a corner, you think the ultimate insult is to call someone a child. So you do that because you've got nothing else. maye that's why you don't like this couple or the 17 kids. You were pegged as a misanthrope a long time ago. What I don't get is why you feel the need to keep re-affirming that.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad <<< In the meantime, studies show that children who come from smaller families end up doing better in life.>>> What studies, where, from whom do you quote? Post it.
