Originally Posted By ecdc >>They are connected to me, Kar2oonMan. I believe homosexual sex to be a sin. I know that offends many of you, but that doesn't change my belief. It also doesn't make me hate gay people, as much as you think it does.<< No, they're not connected to you. You can believe in whatever silliness you like. People believe eating pork is a sin, or that women showing their faces in public is a sin. It doesn't mean they're right, just like it doesn't mean your right. The days of people getting respect and protection just because they utter the magic words, "I believe" are over. These are bigoted, medieval superstitions and ought to be called such. So unless you can demonstrate why you're right, beyond "shucks, ya'll! These are my beliefs!" then you need to keep your nose out of other people's lives.
Originally Posted By utahjosh Wow, I guess ecdc doesn't have much problems with sex outside of marriage, language in society and on television, rampant pornography, crude and off-color humor being the #1 choice for comics and sitcoms, unmarried teenage pregnancies, fathers leaving their families, abortions, etc. I don't think we'll ever agree on these issues. I'm not going to change my mind, either are you.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Wow, I guess ecdc doesn't have much problems with sex outside of marriage, language in society and on television, rampant pornography, crude and off-color humor being the #1 choice for comics and sitcoms, unmarried teenage pregnancies, fathers leaving their families, abortions, etc.<< First, you know that's not what I said. Second, you clearly have no response to what I really did say, so we can only assume that you aren't able to respond. Fair enough. And for the record: -I have no problem with sex outside of marriage so long as it's consensual. - I have no problem with language in society and on television; I can always change the channel. -I have no problem with pornography so long as the women involved did so out of a choice and are empowered within the industry. -I have no problem with crude and off-color humor being the #1 choice for comics and sitcoms (although I'm not convinced that's the case). As above, I can always change the channel. -I have a problem with both married and unmarried teen pregnancies, and hope that religious superstition is shunted aside so our children can be educated and have an opportunity to experience life before they start popping out infants. -I have a problem with fathers or mothers leaving their families and wish marriage and parenthood were taught as a serious commitment and that it may not be for everyone. -I have a problem with abortions and hope they can decrease in frequency through education.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <so we can only assume that you aren't able to respond.> Yeah, I am pretty busy today.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 Well said ecdc - I agree with all of your points 100%. But then again, what do I know -- I'm one of those evil gays the Pope is trying to save the world from!! ;-)
Originally Posted By gadzuux Josh - your "problem" is with OTHER PEOPLE having sex outside of marriage, swearing, viewing porn, dirty jokes and the rest. And you don't seem to understand that you don't get to make life choices for other people. You actively WANT to make their choices for them - or more to the point, PROHIBITING them from making their own choices. Perhaps this is because you belong to a group that makes all of your life choices for you. Maybe that's where this intrusive sense of entitlement comes from.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <Josh - your "problem" is with OTHER PEOPLE having sex outside of marriage, swearing, viewing porn, dirty jokes and the rest.> My problem is the harm it does to families, the basic unit of our society. I feel it will harm our entire nation. <And you don't seem to understand that you don't get to make life choices for other people.> I get to make my voice heard. <Perhaps this is because you belong to a group that makes all of your life choices for you. Maybe that's where this intrusive sense of entitlement comes from.> I really don't think so, gadzuux. My life is indeed governed by my faith in God, but I still have complete control of my choices and my life. Having a moral center and deciding to stick to them is a good thing in my book.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>My problem is the harm it does to families, the basic unit of our society. I feel it will harm our entire nation.<< But you still, countless threads and posts later, haven't shown how. And you still, countless threads and posts later, haven't responded to the point about the recentness of this notion of the family as the basic unit of society. Any freshman in World History 101 can tell you that. It's a modern concept, Josh. Is God just 200 years old? >>I get to make my voice heard.<< Of course you do. But there's a difference between free speech and the tyranny of the majority. Your argument is akin to a white person in the 50s who supports segregation saying, "I get to make my voice heard. I believe integration threatens the family, the basic unit of society." And still, countless threads and posts later, you haven't shown why it's different. >>I really don't think so, gadzuux. My life is indeed governed by my faith in God, but I still have complete control of my choices and my life.<< Yes, you have chosen to let other people make most of your choices for you, that's true. But it's not really much of a choice if it's presented, as it is in Mormonism, as follows: "We all have our free agency. You can choose to follow the prophets and obey God's commandments (which conveniently come through the prophets) and therefore obtain your reward in heaven, or you can choose to not follow the prophets, be consigned to spirit prison and then the telestial kingdom, and be separated from your family for all eternity. Yes, the choice is yours." Gee, I wonder which "choice" people are going to make.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <It's a modern concept, Josh. Is God just 200 years old?> Things have changed - but Mother, Father, and kids as a family unit have been a constant in the most successful families, especially in our country. <Gee, I wonder which "choice" people are going to make.> Which one did you make, ecdc? God's been instructing people like that for ages, they don't always follow. I choose to. My choice.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <But you still, countless threads and posts later, haven't shown how.> Oh please. Just because you disagreed with the arguments, don't pretend they haven't been shown. They have.
Originally Posted By gadzuux I choose to dismiss your faith as irrelevant to my life. You choose to intrude into my life in an effort to enforce the tenets of your faith in my life. You don't want me to have sex - ever. You don't want me to the the right to marry. You don't want me to look at porn. You don't want me to swear or laugh at dirty jokes. You want to force women to bear children they may not want and men to remain married to women against their will. You want everyone to live like bradys and share your faith with all of it's arcane beliefs. NOT "your choice".
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Which one did you make, ecdc? God's been instructing people like that for ages, they don't always follow. I choose to. My choice.<< I chose to stop believing in superstition. Mormonism tells you not to go down certain paths, or else you'll discover the boogeyman down there. I've traveled some of those paths, and there's nothing there. No boogeyman. And in some cases, there's wonderful things down those paths. I can't express how grateful I am that I gave up the superstition for the real. I get to experience the wonderful things life has to offer without always worrying about what will happen to me in the next one. it's far, far more inspirational and peaceful than anything I ever found in Mormonism.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <You don't want me to have sex - ever.> I don't really care. I think God doesn't really want you to have sex with men. <You don't want me to the the right to marry.> I do believe that marriage should only be between men and women. However, I do not object to rights for same-sex couples regarding hospitalization and medical care, <You don't want me to look at porn.> Again, you can do whatever you want in the privacy of your home. I'd suggest you don't look at porn if you asked me. <You don't want me to swear or laugh at dirty jokes.> Not while i'm around. The mods here on LP agree. <You want to force women to bear children they may not want> I'd rather they don't create unwanted children in the first place. But if they've made the choice to get pregnant, I do believe they should not kill the child, and give it up for adoption. <and men to remain married to women against their will.> Not true. I want to encourage husbands to love and serve their wives and stay married out of love. <You want everyone to live like bradys and share your faith with all of it's arcane beliefs.> I do want to share my faith with anyone who wants to listen. I know many here aren't interested, including you. I know. Really. I know. <NOT "your choice".> What's not my choice?
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<Again, you can do whatever you want in the privacy of your home.>> But if you had your way, no porn would get made. So how would I be able to look at it then? <<But if they've made the choice to get pregnant, I do believe they should not kill the child, and give it up for adoption.>> What about rape victims? <<Not true. I want to encourage husbands to love and serve their wives and stay married out of love.>> But what if they don't? What then? You can't force two people to love each other. Don't you think they should have a way to legally end the marriage?
Originally Posted By utahjosh <But if you had your way, no porn would get made. So how would I be able to look at it then?> What do you mean "if I had my way?" <<But if they've made the choice to get pregnant, I do believe they should not kill the child, and give it up for adoption.>> [What about rape victims?] We can talk abortion when it comes to incest and rape. I'm not completely unreasonable (others will disagree with that statement.) <<Not true. I want to encourage husbands to love and serve their wives and stay married out of love.>> But what if they don't? What then? You can't force two people to love each other. Don't you think they should have a way to legally end the marriage? Totally. Divorce is necessary in many cases.
Originally Posted By plpeters70 <<What do you mean "if I had my way?">> I assummed that you, as well as your church, would like to see a stop to the production of pornography. Perhaps I assummed wrong? <<I'm not completely unreasonable>> Glad to hear it!
Originally Posted By utahjosh <I assummed that you, as well as your church, would like to see a stop to the production of pornography. Perhaps I assummed wrong?> I would love to see pornography not exist anymore. But I have no lawful, good way to make that happen, nor am I trying to make it happen.
Originally Posted By melekalikimaka For somebody who doesn't like all of the evils in the world, Josh, you sure spend a lot of time thinking and talking about them! LOL
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "I would love to see pornography not exist anymore. But I have no lawful, good way to make that happen, nor am I trying to make it happen." If you want a few good links, DAR can send them to you. I'm married, I don't go near the stuff.
